Negative quality disappointing d76 1:1

[anitasanger]

I just developed 5 rolls of film shot with my m6 for the first time in a couple years. Here are the logistics.

fresh d76 1:1 water dilution @68 degrees for 9 1/4 minutes in a 5 roll tank. i agitated and or inverted every minute or so.

The negatives seemed to lack contrast and seemed rather lighter than i'm used to seeing. In some frames, the grain seems to be rather large and others it's not. It's quite peculiar. I've scanned a few of the negatives into the computer and they are somewhat blah.

I'm now noticing on Kodak's site that the developing times are different between small and large tanks. for small at 68 it says 9 1/4, but it says for large tanks at 68, go 11 minutes. should i have done this? I'm confused as to why the size of the tank would require longer times. Would light negatives lacking contrast be the result of too little or too long time?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[palec]

The agitation is the key and it's described in the Kodak documents too.
For small tanks with 30 sec agitation intervals there is a 9 3/4 time and for large tanks with 1 minute interval it's 11 min.

There might be other factors like precision of thermometer and quality of water, but I would start with longer times and more vigorous agitation.

The grain on some frames might be the the result of scanning software dealing with underdeveloped negatives. Better to look at the negatives and find if the frames are over/under-exposed and learn from it.

To partially save your negatives you can use some intensifier (like selenium toner) to retrieve some density on those negatives.

For future it's better to start with one roll and adjust everything until you satisfied and only then continue with full loaded tank.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Large tanks (those which use more than 8 reels?) take longer to agitate- it takes more time or effort to achieve the same amount of movent than in a smaller tank with just 2 reels or about 500 ml of solution.

1+1 will give lower contrast than full strength. Some like this effect for compensation, enlarging with condenser enlargers or both. Your scanner will also probably like the lower contrast. There's really nothing to be disappointed about if the shadow and highlights are well represented there.

As for grain, diluting D76 will actually increase the appearance of granularity, along with a heightened impression of contour sharpness.

 

[MartinP]

The 'large tanks' mentioned in instructions are often meant to be the deep rectangular tanks of 15 litres or so where the reels are placed in a cage, which is then immersed in the open tank, agitated as required and moved on to the stop-bath tank then fixer tank - all in total darkness obviously. That would usually be using stock solution and be replenished in the tank, based on test-strip densitometer results and "X"ml of replenisher per roll/sheet. In the 'old times' I dev'd hundreds (thousands?) of rolls and sheets like that in my job.

For the in-between sort of large daylight-tank you would probably find that inversion agitation is less efficient than the two-roll daylight-tanks, simply due to the volume of the tank compared to the amount of air left in it when full. I suspect the result you're seeing is due to a relatively low amount of agitation. Did the 'good' results you are thinking of come out of the same tank, with the same film-type and number of reels?

 

[skibeerr]

Also check your M6 meter for correct exposure, could be underexposure.

 

[Vics]

I do 10 minutes with two inversions every 30 seconds. I arrived at this (for my workflow only) after exhaustive testing twenty years ago. Results may vary with someone else's equipment/methods.

 

[mfogiel]

First: you did not specify what film it was.
Second: how much developer per film was there? As far as I remember Kodak recommends 100cc of undliuted developer per film, although D76 will also work with less ( but at longer development time)
Third: are you sure about your exposure?
D76 is not getting the top speed out of films ( it is normally working OK at 2/3 box speed), but on the other hand the tonality is superb. When you describe the grain, it looks like your negs have been overly underexposed - with underdevelopment the grain is seldom a problem.

 

[anitasanger]

Thank you for all the advice so far. It was Tri-x 400. My tank was a 5 reel tank. So would should I have done the 11 minutes as opposed to the 9 1/4. I'm thinking about tossing this batch of developer and starting new. I have thought of a few variables. One, i was using well water where I used to use city water. I'm wondering if the minerals in my well caused inconsistency? I'm thinking about starting over with Tap water. My thermometer is a new analog therm purchased through freestyle photo. As for the M6 meter. I need to test it compared with my digital camera and see how that is. I have like 30 rolls to develop, but have just done 5 so far. I need to experiment one roll at a time until I get it dialed in I guess.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Yes minerals can affect developers. I use only distilled water to make developers, for both the stock solution and for diluting it. One thing to remember is that according to Kodak's data sheet on D-76, you cannot fill a tank with film at the 1+1 dilution. If you use a two reel tank, you should only develop ONE roll, and fill the space with an empty reel. A 4 roll tank can develop 2 rolls of film, with two empty reels filling the rest of the space. The reason is D76 is not strong enough at the 1+1 dilution to develop that much film. If you filled your tank with film and used the 1+1 dilution, THAT is what caused your underdeveloping.

 

[atlcruiser]

I also would check the M6 meter and I would suggesst using a handheld as opposed to the digi meter in your other camera.

I would use a small tank and do 1 roll at a time until you get it all figured out.

I use tap water all the time with no issue but I can see well water causing issues but no idea which ones.

I do tri x /d-76 1+1 all the time for about 10 minutes if shot at 400ish speed. I have done 5 roll and 8 roll tanks with no time addition or issues with dilution. I do 3 full inversions every minute no matter the size tank.

I would suggest you check the meter, get better water then do a roll for 9.5, 10, 10.5 and 11 then see what you get.

 

[filmfan]

Yes minerals can affect developers. I use only distilled water to make developers, for both the stock solution and for diluting it. One thing to remember is that according to Kodak's data sheet on D-76, you cannot fill a tank with film at the 1+1 dilution. If you use a two reel tank, you should only develop ONE roll, and fill the space with an empty reel. A 4 roll tank can develop 2 rolls of film, with two empty reels filling the rest of the space. The reason is D76 is not strong enough at the 1+1 dilution to develop that much film. If you filled your tank with film and used the 1+1 dilution, THAT is what caused your underdeveloping.

Strange. I have been developing my 4 roll tank with all 4 rolls filled with D76 1+1 for 10 minutes, agitate ever 30 seconds, and all my rolls have come out just fine.

 

[atlcruiser]

Strange. I have been developing my 4 roll tank with all 4 rolls filled with D76 1+1 for 10 minutes, agitate ever 30 seconds, and all my rolls have come out just fine.

as have I.... I might need to read the directions someday to tell my why it should not work 🙂

 

[filmfan]

as have I.... I might need to read the directions someday to tell my why it should not work 🙂

When you do, could you PM me? 😀

 

[tedwhite]

I've been doing D76 1:1 at 68 degrees with distilled water for 10-10 1/2 minutes (11 minutes if 4 rolls in a 4 roll tank) for decades. Works for me.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

When you do, could you PM me? 😀

I'm just telling you what the directions say. What will happen is that someday one of you will have several rolls of mostly white subject matter that you'll develop together, the images will need more developer strength because of the high neg density and will come out underdeveloped. The instructions say that you can do 4 rolls in a 4 roll tank by increasing dev. time 10%. So, you're essentially underdeveloping 10%, not enough to make a major problem with a film like Tri-X, but you'll see it with Tmax films. Still, I am a perfectionist, I don't see economizing when my work is so important to me, so I do 2 rolls in a 4 roll tank with D76 1+1, even with Tri-X. I'll email the PDF to anyone that wants it. don't PM me, my PM box is near full. Email me at chris@chriscrawfordphoto.com

 

[anitasanger]

Thank you Chriscrawfordphoto! I was looking for some type of logical answer and this seems to be it! This actually makes perfect sense. I used to always use d76 1:1 in a 2 ROLL TANK! I did 2 rolls, but they always came out perfect. Only recently have I moved up to a 5 roll tank, and come to think of it, I was never happy with the negatives. Your answer provided makes perfect sense. I'm glad that this isn't causing problems for everyone, as several people have voiced that they have done so and haven't had problems.

I was all but decided on going to a d76 full strength solution, but I may stick to 1:1 in 2 roll batches. What are the pros and cons of 1:1 vs. full strength. All I know for sure is that 1:1 produces slightly more pronounced grain.

Anyway, I've posted some scans of the aforementioned negatives in the Leica subforum. You can see them at the link below. Again, thank you for all the advice.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99484

 

[notraces]

Could you let us know the total amount of undiluted D76 you used? Personally, I wouldn't use less than 200ml per roll of undiluted solution. I think Kodak recommends 250ml per roll.

 

[anitasanger]

I used 25oz D76 and 25oz water to develop 5 rolls of Tri-x 400.

 

[tj01]

D76 and Tri-X goes together like bread and butter , and complement each other ( at least for me ). I think you just have to keep on experimenting with your own variables to squeeze every ounce out.
What you describe sounds like very underexposed negs. I think you already know what you need to do eliminate what went wrong.
However, I don't think there's much difference between 2 roll vs 5 roll tanks if you have enough developer in there to at least submerge the reels. ( there might be differences but perhaps too subtle to be noticeable ).
Good luck

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Thank you Chriscrawfordphoto! I was looking for some type of logical answer and this seems to be it! This actually makes perfect sense. I used to always use d76 1:1 in a 2 ROLL TANK! I did 2 rolls, but they always came out perfect. Only recently have I moved up to a 5 roll tank, and come to think of it, I was never happy with the negatives. Your answer provided makes perfect sense. I'm glad that this isn't causing problems for everyone, as several people have voiced that they have done so and haven't had problems.

I was all but decided on going to a d76 full strength solution, but I may stick to 1:1 in 2 roll batches. What are the pros and cons of 1:1 vs. full strength. All I know for sure is that 1:1 produces slightly more pronounced grain.

Anyway, I've posted some scans of the aforementioned negatives in the Leica subforum. You can see them at the link below. Again, thank you for all the advice.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99484

The diluted developer produces slightly higher sharpness at the expense of more grain. That's true of most developers that more dilution = more sharpness and more grain. Most developers also produce slightly less contrast in the lightest tones with higher dilutions. I always use D76 at 1+1, and with other developers I tend to prefer higher dilutions. Tmax Developer, for example, is usually used at a 1+4 dilution, but I like it at 1+7 for most films.