New Classified feature

[ch1]

George, actually we're nearer than it looks. I originally favoured a universal membership fee, but came to see problems with the potential for an inflexible "one size fits all" solution. In general I prefer to trust individual choice and my "geographical fees" were a consciously provocative attempt to highlight the limitless complications implicit in a monolithic solution - the sliding scales etc.

The "free" nature of RFF is part of its unique character, but I do not think it unreasonable to expect members to pay for enhanced services - nor do I think that this necessarily creates multiple levels of membership. For all that, I suspect that ultimately a (flexible) universal fee along the lines you outline is the only workable solution. Yet I fear such a fee changes the nature of our relationship: we become "customers" and RFF changes from a clearing in the forest to a semi-commercial "service provider". I wish I knew the answer....

Regards Ian

Ian,

Perhaps part of the problem is simply semantic?

Replace the word "fee" with "dues" and it becomes more community -based or club-like?

In any event, such a financial arrangement also creates a legitimate sense of entitlement. Regardless of how "nasty" a discussion might be - we will have a system where someone is a "dues paying member"....[yes with the understanding that "dues paying" can have a flexible definition depending on what has been arranged privately with Jorge.]

 

[ch1]

BTW.

Wouldn't a paid subscription system make the site harder to hack and easier to identify hackers?

I'm not a cyber-geek so this is only conjecture.

 

[sf]

George, actually we're nearer than it looks. I originally favoured a universal membership fee, but came to see problems with the potential for an inflexible "one size fits all" solution. In general I prefer to trust individual choice and my "geographical fees" were a consciously provocative attempt to highlight the limitless complications implicit in a monolithic solution - the sliding scales etc.

The "free" nature of RFF is part of its unique character, but I do not think it unreasonable to expect members to pay for enhanced services - nor do I think that this necessarily creates multiple levels of membership. For all that, I suspect that ultimately a (flexible) universal fee along the lines you outline is the only workable solution. Yet I fear such a fee alters the nature of our relationship: we become "customers" and RFF changes from a clearing in the forest to a semi-commercial "service provider". I wish I knew the answer.

Good night thread, from this side of the ocean!

Regards Ian

well put. I agree on the unpleasantness of this situation, but I also believe that we have to do something - and paying dues will open a few much needed doors. One being security. ANother being bandwidth and up-time. Another being overall performace . . .

It is perfectly reasonable to require subscriptions for certain capabilties like using the classifieds - I believe that to be one vital aspect of the plan. And having much greater uploading capacity would be nice too.

 

[RicardoD]

I am glad to hear others are thinking about the International Members of the RFF community who may not have the funds for a subscription. I would like to think there is a way for them to join if possible, even if that means I have to pay a bit more.

I am reminded of my father, a poor student in Bolivia in the 60s who recently told me how he had to save for several months to purchase his Voigtlander Vito CD scale focus camera during that time. I have recently started using his Voigtlander again thanks to some new things I learned here at RFF. My participation in this forum has opened up a whole new line of communication between us as he shares with me his passion for photography from his younger days.

So I think about someone back in Bolivia now, perhaps a university student like my father where $25 is not so easy to come by. I'd like to think there is something I could do to help that person out and a way for that student to join our group to help his money go that extra mile. I know I have saved over easily a hundred dollars or more from some helpful tips in the past few weeks as I setup my B&W developing process.

 

[ch1]

I am glad to hear others are thinking about the International Members of the RFF community who may not have the funds for a subscription. I would like to think there is a way for them to join if possible, even if that means I have to pay a bit more.

I am reminded of my father, a poor student in Bolivia in the 60s who recently told me how he had to save for several months to purchase his Voigtlander Vito CD scale focus camera during that time. I have recently started using his Voigtlander again thanks to some new things I learned here at RFF. My participation in this forum has opened up a whole new line of communication between us as he shares with me his passion for photography from his younger days.

So I think about someone back in Bolivia now, perhaps a university student like my father where $25 is not so easy to come by. I'd like to think there is something I could do to help that person out and a way for that student to join our group to help his money go that extra mile. I know I have saved over easily a hundred dollars or more from some helpful tips in the past few weeks as I setup my B&W developing process.

Very well put, Ricardo.

I think we would all agree that this site should remain one with open access for all - while enabling the majority of us who can afford to support it a regularized means of doing so.

I have enough faith in folks (despite my aging years in NYC) to think that most of those who have a need to privately ask Jorge to provide them access at a reduced (or no) rate of fee will be legitimate.

And Jorge will have the final say - so if he (privately of course) challenges the assertion - that is his right as the site sponsor.

I also suspect that some of us will be willing to kick in a few extra $, on an anonymous basis, to provide a "subsidy fund" should there still be the need.

It would be helpful at this point is some of the "doyens" of this site (i.e. the more "seasoned" members) gave us their thoughts on the evolving discussion.

 

[MP Guy]

Dear members, I appreciate all the ideas. However, kepp this in mind. This is not a charity drive. I have managed in the past and I can manage now. I Think a pay your dues system may work out an I may leave it at the gallery level as it is now. But Like I said last night. I will sleep on it for a few nights while I take in all the great business ideas being proposed. Lets face it. I would love to make this a profitable business but not at the expense of the members. Thats where the advertising comes in. I never plan on having more than just a few companies advertising. I hate sites that bombard you with ads. If I had the time to seek advertisers I would do so and probably seek no more than 4 or 5 more advertisers.

 

[ch1]

Dear members, I appreciate all the ideas. However, kepp this in mind. This is not a charity drive. I have managed in the past and I can manage now. I Think a pay your dues system may work out an I may leave it at the gallery level as it is now. But Like I said last night. I will sleep on it for a few nights while I take in all the great business ideas being proposed. Lets face it. I would love to make this a profitable business but not at the expense of the members. Thats where the advertising comes in. I never plan on having more than just a few companies advertising. I hate sites that bombard you with ads. If I had the time to seek advertisers I would do so and probably seek no more than 4 or 5 more advertisers.

Jorge,

Well said - and I think what make RFF special is that while it should be self-supporting (and maybe buy you the occassional Big Mac) it is essentially a service.

I'd suggest that while you are thinking about things that you consider what is the simplest, most universal and fair way to distribute the financial burden.

A general dues at some modest level seems fair - so long as the net collected after PayPal fees or whatever and admin time (yours) are determined.

But what is most important is that the site obtain the financial wherewithal it needs while remining an open access to those who enjoy RF gear.

Sweet dreams.... 😉

 

[pesphoto]

KNow that we all mean well and i agree, well said Jorge! Take a little break. I think we all let it go for a few days and enjoy the rff.

 

[ch1]

KNow that we all mean well and i agree, well said Jorge! Take a little break. I think we all let it go for a few days and enjoy the rff.

Does this mean we can start arguing about FID and F v D again? 😀

Just kidding! Really, just kidding!!!! :angel:

 

[pesphoto]

Does this mean we can start arguing about FID and F v D again? 😀

Just kidding! Really, just kidding!!!! :angel:

you know it, lets go mister. hehehe

 

[FrankS]

I'm happy to be able to say, George, that your last few posts (beginning with #167), I have been able to agree with whole-heartedly. 🙂

 

[Simon Larbalestier]

Jorge,
But what is most important is that the site obtain the financial wherewithal it needs while remining an open access to those who enjoy RF gear.
)

I think George here hits the nail on the head (sorry to edit your post!). I happily paid my $25 - not to recieve upgraded status or enhanced features -i won't be uploading 20+ images a day - i don't work that fast -
but to support the website and it's community.

Tom mentioned several pages back a flat fee - call it a "donation" or "dues"
even offer 30 day free trial period for new members.

At the end of the day this is Jorge's site and concept, so i'm happy to support his choice of direction when that time comes

Simon

 

[ch1]

I'm happy to be able to say, George, that your last few posts (beginning with #167), I have been able to agree with whole-heartedly. 🙂

Frank,

The goal for all of us is only acheivable via discussion and understanding. We are all striving to find a way of achieving viability for the site while retaining, to the greatest extent possible, its inclusiveness.

I think we are close to that merger and you are certainly one of the "doyens" to whom I was reaching out to.

Thanks.

 

[FrankS]

At the end of the day this is Jorge's site and concept, so i'm happy to support his choice of direction when that time comes.

I can not be so accommodating. If Jorge is going to build RFF into an empire with e-bay like photo gear auctions, I will not be happy to support his choice, even though I completely understand and endorse his right to do so.

I am worried because I feel like our family corner coffee shop is in danger of being taken over by Starbucks Corp.

 

[bmattock]

Oh gag me. It has been a long while since I've seen so much kissing up. What a smooch-fest.

 

[FrankS]

I was really ticked off at you for calling me names George, until I looked up "doyans." 🙂

 

[FrankS]

Lighten up Bill, you're a doyan too. What do you think about Jorge's proposed changes?

 

[ch1]

Frank,

I think Jorge values you and your POV such that there is little danger of this becoming an eBay shop.

In fact, I think if we agree upon a revenue stream based on "club dues" he will be less likely to seek to exploit individual features of the site on some "pay as you go" basis.

Obviously we all have our individual comfort (and discomfort) levels but I do believe that so long as the revenue stream is based on auniversal source it avoids creating "classes", "tiers" and "factions" etc.

It's kind of like income taxes. No one want to pay them - but so long as we figure that they are fairly levied - we put up with it because we know we have to pay the bills.

 

[FrankS]

For all I know George, Jorge may think I'm a moron.

 

[bmattock]

Lighten up Bill, you're a doyan too. What do you think about Jorge's proposed changes?

I think it is his site, and he can do as he pleases with it. I have an opinion about both the idea of paying for gallery use and classified ad use - and I've mentioned them in the past. But it is his site. My opinion doesn't matter, and I don't get a vote.

I paid promptly, and I only mention that now because Jorge already told everyone when I PM'd him to tell him that I could no longer access the main menu after paying - I wish he hadn't done that, but it's his right. I prefer to do what I do in private - pay or not pay, and CH can wail about "How come we haven't seen BM kick in yet?" I don't do "me too." It's like lining up to kiss the ring.

I only injected my last comment in pure gagalicious reflex. I mean, how strong can we pour the sugar on? Oh, Jorge, we love you, you're the greatest, smoochy smoochy let us help lift the heavy load from your shoulders. It's a load, alright. A pantload.

Of course, this attitude could be why I don't get promoted at work.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks