squirrelman
Newbie
I know someone else said it, but what i'd really love is a new 50 summicron collapsable. Make is ASPH if you need to so it happens and is small. I'd pay a pretty penny for it personally. That extra stop from the Elmar would be nice. Infact i'd love to see more collapsable lenses, more more more 
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Dougg said:
Doug,
A measure of my VC gives a bit less than your figures; 1.8" (glad to see your still not metric
) from the mount to the front or 2.25" from front to rear element. But with the hood fitted it comes to 2.5" from the mount. I guess the Summicron figure is from rear element to front, but the amount projecting into the body looks a bit less than the VC. So maybe its a little shorter, but not of significance. It would be nice to have one the same size & wieght as my 35mm Cron.
Jim
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Hi Sean,Sean Reid said:
While I agree the safety factor means the framelines give 37mm or less. At 35/0.85 factor on the R-D1 would = 41mm, although of course it does not have this frame. This safety factor is as far as I know constant (and of couse to a degree necessary, we might dispute the amount needed) for for any lens. As far as I'm aware the safety factor doesn't vary with the different framelines at least on the Leicas & the R-D1 ( I know there have been a few better solutions on certain RF's).
Of course with experience and regular use you know the difference and allow for it. With my 35mm Cron on my M4 I know where the real outlimits of the frame will be for a subject before I raise the camera to my eye, but I have to admit I still have not settled well enough with the R-D1 and a lens combination (relatively longer than 35 for all those built in) not to spend a (annoying to me) split second or so thinking about where the edges will fall. I think my quickest/best shot is with the VC 25mm Skopar (my closest to 35 on 35 equivalent) where I'm not taking any notice of the R-D1's framelines.
This is my main reason for hoping for an MD with a really good viewfinder and framelines\lens combination that will give the exact 35mm lens on 35mm film equivalent.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks I suppose. :bang:
Jim
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S
Sean Reid
Guest
Hi Jim,
I thought about that too. I also imagine the edges of the picture falling just outside the frame lines when I'm working.
Cheers,
Sean
I thought about that too. I also imagine the edges of the picture falling just outside the frame lines when I'm working.
Cheers,
Sean
rolly
Member
One of the best things about the Contax G system-- which is what I still mostly use (21, 45, 90)-- is that in addition to having great lenses, it feels "right" in the hand. A while ago someone started an off-topic thread about What Kind of Pen do you Write with?-- There is a correlation. Many people in the RF forum truly dislike the way DSLRs feel in hand. They feel wrong, just plain wrong, as if they had been designed by beings more interested in medical study of the human organism than by craftsmen with thumbs and four fingers. The Epson RD-1 does, to my hands, feel very. very right. When Leica built the M5, actually a terrific camera, a lot of people didn';t like the way it felt in hand. Leica should follow their hands.
Yes, I agree-- in addition to the feel of the camera, it should have the best VF of anyone, bar none, since the price is likely to be the highest of anyone else's bar none, after buying new lenses (since my G2 lenses are dead-enders).
Yes-- again, harkening to the medical labs inspiration behind dslrs-- minimal menu litter. Should be non-intrusive, easily hidden.
Finally, to make this the last camera I ever have to have, any new lenses should be developed to cover the inevitable loss of the widest angles due to the less than full-size sensor. 24, 21 for starters would be attractive to me-- again, hewing to the same feel and quality as existing M lenses.
I'd rather wait, say, two more years, using my little Ricoh GR and film as a stop-gap than have the digital M rushed to market (even rushed for Leica!). When I commit my money to Leica, and it seems likely that is what I will do since I believe only Leica can really pull off a classic digital camera, I really don't want to have to upgrade for a minimum of seven years. I mean, maybe there'll be a second DM in that time, but I should feel the camera I have bought is still so good I have no need to have to junk it for a newer model. The basics of that near-perfect DRF have been covered well by many other here. So: get everything right, near-perfect and then release the camera. If Leica can do that, they will probably own the RF market, as they did when they released the M3 in 1954. I hope they can.
Yes, I agree-- in addition to the feel of the camera, it should have the best VF of anyone, bar none, since the price is likely to be the highest of anyone else's bar none, after buying new lenses (since my G2 lenses are dead-enders).
Yes-- again, harkening to the medical labs inspiration behind dslrs-- minimal menu litter. Should be non-intrusive, easily hidden.
Finally, to make this the last camera I ever have to have, any new lenses should be developed to cover the inevitable loss of the widest angles due to the less than full-size sensor. 24, 21 for starters would be attractive to me-- again, hewing to the same feel and quality as existing M lenses.
I'd rather wait, say, two more years, using my little Ricoh GR and film as a stop-gap than have the digital M rushed to market (even rushed for Leica!). When I commit my money to Leica, and it seems likely that is what I will do since I believe only Leica can really pull off a classic digital camera, I really don't want to have to upgrade for a minimum of seven years. I mean, maybe there'll be a second DM in that time, but I should feel the camera I have bought is still so good I have no need to have to junk it for a newer model. The basics of that near-perfect DRF have been covered well by many other here. So: get everything right, near-perfect and then release the camera. If Leica can do that, they will probably own the RF market, as they did when they released the M3 in 1954. I hope they can.
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Dougg
Seasoned Member
Hi Jim... I would have expected B&H's dimensions to be consistently measured, but perhaps they're not. I verified their 1.6" length on the 'cron, which is correct for flange to filter ring at infinity focus.Jim Watts said:Doug,
A measure of my VC gives a bit less than your figures; 1.8" (glad to see your still not metric
Their given length on the 28 Ultron is quite a lot longer, but in illustrations (not having seen one personally) the Ultron does look longer so I didn't doubt their figures. Sounds like your 1.8" is the comparable measure, some 0.2" longer than the Summicron.
Agree with you on the desire for a 2.0/28 the same size as a non-asph 2.0/35, as the compactness is nice. Looking at the new Zeiss ZM lenses lined up in focal length order shows a surprisingly bumpy progression in lengths...
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edlaurpic
Established
Most of us have most of the lenses we will use already
Most of us have most of the lenses we will use already
Most of us who will buy the DM already have the lenses we will want to use, from 21's all the way up to 90's and, in some cases, 135's, so the framelines should show the lenses that most people will use. If the viewfinder ends up cluttered with too many framelines, that would be a shame, so I would vote fora viewfinder that would pull up three basic frames for : 21/28,35/50, 75/90. I personally don't mind having an external finder on my RD-1 when I use the V12 or V15, so if Leica came out with a 15/2.8 (which would also be my suggestion), this could be with an external finder. An external finder for use with a 135 would also be nice, but the demand would probably not be that great for it.
I currently have the tiny V 28/35 finder permanently attached to my R-D1 and I find it works just fine to frame shots I take with a 21 or 28 and I much prefer using it to the viewfinder when using the 28.
Not sure how Cosina did that little finder, but it is such a pleasure to use because of its small size so if Leica does some new external finders and they can get them small, that would be great.
Most of us have most of the lenses we will use already
Most of us who will buy the DM already have the lenses we will want to use, from 21's all the way up to 90's and, in some cases, 135's, so the framelines should show the lenses that most people will use. If the viewfinder ends up cluttered with too many framelines, that would be a shame, so I would vote fora viewfinder that would pull up three basic frames for : 21/28,35/50, 75/90. I personally don't mind having an external finder on my RD-1 when I use the V12 or V15, so if Leica came out with a 15/2.8 (which would also be my suggestion), this could be with an external finder. An external finder for use with a 135 would also be nice, but the demand would probably not be that great for it.
I currently have the tiny V 28/35 finder permanently attached to my R-D1 and I find it works just fine to frame shots I take with a 21 or 28 and I much prefer using it to the viewfinder when using the 28.
Not sure how Cosina did that little finder, but it is such a pleasure to use because of its small size so if Leica does some new external finders and they can get them small, that would be great.
edlaurpic
Established
And another thing . . .
And another thing . . .
Forgot to mention that I hope, if Leica creates some new lenses for the DM, they give some serious thought to some really compact ones.
Most of the time I carry my R-D1 with an old red scale elmar mounted on it (I fitted an o-ring on the barrel so that I could collapse it as far in as possible without touching the shutter). I use the elmar mostly because it is so tiny, because I can switch to 1600 ASA if I need more light, and because I like the way this lens draws on this camera. I carry various other lenses depending on where I am going to be/what I am going to shoot.
I have the great modern 21/2.8, 28/2 ashp, 35/2 asph, etc., and when I don't mind their larger size, I will use them on the R-d1, but consider this: most of the great photographs taken by the magnum photographers over the last 50 years, were taken with RF cameras on which very small and relatively slow lenses were mounted.
Another lens that is surprisingly good and very compact is the underestimated 35mm/3.5 Summaron. It might be a poor performer with an film M camera (don't know), but I like the way it draws on the R-d1.
And another thing . . .
Forgot to mention that I hope, if Leica creates some new lenses for the DM, they give some serious thought to some really compact ones.
Most of the time I carry my R-D1 with an old red scale elmar mounted on it (I fitted an o-ring on the barrel so that I could collapse it as far in as possible without touching the shutter). I use the elmar mostly because it is so tiny, because I can switch to 1600 ASA if I need more light, and because I like the way this lens draws on this camera. I carry various other lenses depending on where I am going to be/what I am going to shoot.
I have the great modern 21/2.8, 28/2 ashp, 35/2 asph, etc., and when I don't mind their larger size, I will use them on the R-d1, but consider this: most of the great photographs taken by the magnum photographers over the last 50 years, were taken with RF cameras on which very small and relatively slow lenses were mounted.
Another lens that is surprisingly good and very compact is the underestimated 35mm/3.5 Summaron. It might be a poor performer with an film M camera (don't know), but I like the way it draws on the R-d1.
S
Sean Reid
Guest
I'm headed out today with the Leica 21 but also the tiny Canon 28/2.8 and 35/2.8
Cheers,
Sean
Cheers,
Sean
Dougg
Seasoned Member
You bring up a good point; there's an important issue of framelines. First, I think the digital M (M8?) frameline display will have to be consistent with the current models. Remember there's only three sets of framelines triggered by the tab on the lens. I think it's reasonable to dispense with the 135mm framelines, so that opens up a shorter "slot", say for 24mm (32mm equivalent). If the viewfinder magnifiation is higher than .72, then we'd have frameline sets of 24/35, 28/90, and 50/75. For a lower-magnification viewfinder, we could lose the 90 (120mm equivalent) and pick up the 21mm (28mm equivalent) for that pair. They'd then be 21/28, 24/35, and 50/75. In both cases current lenses would trigger the correct framelines except 21 and 24 where only new versions would do so automatically. For the previous 21 & 24 it would be handy to have a latching frameline preview lever.edlaurpic said:
rvaubel
Well-known
Sean
Read your review of the Zeiss & Leica 21mm/f2.0 . Great lens both and a perfect wide angle range for both the RD-1 and the digital M. I"ll probably get the Zeiss because of the price, but rumour has it that Leica will be releasing a fast superwide with the camera. I'd wait if I thought that a F2.0 was a possibility (even @ 3-4K)
Some talk of a super wide in the 15-19mm range has been discussed also. That would make sense, since while the 15mm Heliar is a great lens at a very affordable price (I have one), it is sloow. Their isnt anything else out their, except the not released Zeiss.
If I were Leica, I would be looking at this range closely. Of course I would worry about Cosina coming in with the same thing at 1/3 the price. Well maybe not exactly the same thing, Mystic Leica qualities notwithstanding.
Rex
Read your review of the Zeiss & Leica 21mm/f2.0 . Great lens both and a perfect wide angle range for both the RD-1 and the digital M. I"ll probably get the Zeiss because of the price, but rumour has it that Leica will be releasing a fast superwide with the camera. I'd wait if I thought that a F2.0 was a possibility (even @ 3-4K)
Some talk of a super wide in the 15-19mm range has been discussed also. That would make sense, since while the 15mm Heliar is a great lens at a very affordable price (I have one), it is sloow. Their isnt anything else out their, except the not released Zeiss.
If I were Leica, I would be looking at this range closely. Of course I would worry about Cosina coming in with the same thing at 1/3 the price. Well maybe not exactly the same thing, Mystic Leica qualities notwithstanding.
Rex
Tom Diaz
Well-known
Lenses and accessories
Lenses and accessories
I do use a 135mm occasionally on my M6. (I have the f/2.8 Elmarit, with the "eyes.") I hope the range- and viewfinder windows on the M8 are compatible with it. If not, could we have a screw-in magnifier that would magnify the central portion of the viewfinder, where the 135mm frames are? Probably want that anyway for people who have the reputably wonderful 135mm Apo-Telyt. It's a shame to have to use an accessory finder.
I am not a big telephoto fan, but with the crop factor, the 135mm would be kind of like a 180mm--decent!
I strongly second previous posts who suggest collapsible 35mm or 50mm Summicrons. I would just love such a lens and would buy one tomorrow for use on my M6. (I am just barely resisting buying the 50mm f/2.8.)
But wait... think about the use of a really good low-noise, high-speed sensor--as good as or better than Canon's--with Leica glass. What could be better for the available-light street shooter? ISO 1600 with performance better than ISO 400 film, and with f/1 or f/1.4 lenses.... So, I also strongly second the posts requesting something like a 28 f/1.4. User reviews of the ZI f/2 lenses are very encouraging, and many new users should consider them given their 2:1 price advantage. To be competitive there should also be Leica lenses that are great and are FAST. Even a 35mm Noctilux would be worth considering if that is not technically impossible, especially if it could be compatible wtih the film Ms! My two most frequently used lenses by far are a 50mm Noctilux and a 35mm Summicron (would probably buy a 35mm Summilux if I were starting from scratch.)
Lenses and accessories
I do use a 135mm occasionally on my M6. (I have the f/2.8 Elmarit, with the "eyes.") I hope the range- and viewfinder windows on the M8 are compatible with it. If not, could we have a screw-in magnifier that would magnify the central portion of the viewfinder, where the 135mm frames are? Probably want that anyway for people who have the reputably wonderful 135mm Apo-Telyt. It's a shame to have to use an accessory finder.
I am not a big telephoto fan, but with the crop factor, the 135mm would be kind of like a 180mm--decent!
I strongly second previous posts who suggest collapsible 35mm or 50mm Summicrons. I would just love such a lens and would buy one tomorrow for use on my M6. (I am just barely resisting buying the 50mm f/2.8.)
But wait... think about the use of a really good low-noise, high-speed sensor--as good as or better than Canon's--with Leica glass. What could be better for the available-light street shooter? ISO 1600 with performance better than ISO 400 film, and with f/1 or f/1.4 lenses.... So, I also strongly second the posts requesting something like a 28 f/1.4. User reviews of the ZI f/2 lenses are very encouraging, and many new users should consider them given their 2:1 price advantage. To be competitive there should also be Leica lenses that are great and are FAST. Even a 35mm Noctilux would be worth considering if that is not technically impossible, especially if it could be compatible wtih the film Ms! My two most frequently used lenses by far are a 50mm Noctilux and a 35mm Summicron (would probably buy a 35mm Summilux if I were starting from scratch.)
eeyore
Member
If it is not too late. Whatever crop factor (1.6,1.5,1.3 or 1.0), a series of fast f/1.4 or f/2.0 normal and wide lenses that are equivalent to the 35-50mm range. A reasonably fast and coupled 18mm (equiv.) lens. There are no lenses in the 35mm range between 15 and 21. Prices could be a bit lower. Ability to use CF cards, rather than SD. Proper framelines. Weather sealed, cause I feel that electronics need far more protection than a mechnical M. In addition, the price needs to be competitve with other similar digital products. As such, I would say pricing between the 5D and 1DsMkII would be about right. Hope it helps.
Ray Kilby
Established
I will want to buy a digital M. But I have had such good an experience with the RD1 that if they bought out a 10m pix version I might be tempted to go for that instead. Whatever Lieca does with the digital M, PLEASE make sure that the information is as easily readable as the Epson single dial. It's anologue, no digital readout and you can tell at a glance your number of frames, battery life, colour temp, file size. It's excellent. If possible I'd like to see a screen that rotates out like the Olympus both portrait and landscape if possible so you can do some waist high shooting. I hope that the camera doesn't rely upon a digital read out.
Lastly a 90mm lens that is a little lighter and shorter than the current sumicron. (I doubt that is poss, but you can dream.)
Lastly a 90mm lens that is a little lighter and shorter than the current sumicron. (I doubt that is poss, but you can dream.)
MP/CLE
Established
It seems that since the camera will be electronic that on both the rear screen and through the viewfinder the camera ought to read whatever lens is placed on it and automatically bring up the appropriate lens lines.
So the M8 is to be a reality at the October Photokina with 10 megapixels and a 1.30 aspect ratio... better start my savings plan now. What better way to get dragged kicking and screaming into the digital domain...
So the M8 is to be a reality at the October Photokina with 10 megapixels and a 1.30 aspect ratio... better start my savings plan now. What better way to get dragged kicking and screaming into the digital domain...
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
MP/CLE said:
A brilliant idea but hard to see how it could be executed, unless Leica goes for a totally different way of projecting framelines in the viewfinder ,maybe something like the displays in jet fighters and some very expensive cars.
Sukiari
Member
I hope Leica does NOT cripple themselves with a black and white sensor, but rather goes the Epson way of having color RAW files and B&W JPGs with virtual color filters.
I also hope that they can get the camera to go for at least 300 exposures on a charge. Additionally, why not make it have a high flash sync speed and make it compatible with some wireless flash protocol such as from Metz! That would really increase the utility of the camera and broaden its application base.
I don't think Leica should screw around making 23mm and 26mm and 31mm and other strange focal length lenses to compensate for a paltry few MM of lens width in a given direction. That smacks of lunacy. Give the camera proper framelines for the 15, 21, 24 / 28, 35, 50, and maybe the 75 lenses, and the real kicker is to come out with a 15mm f/2.8 that is not only competitively priced with the Cosina Zeiss lens, but also has RF coupling.
A 21 f/2 would be nice too.
It should have a manually operated ISO dial, placed hopefully where it always has been. Hopefully they can work the exposure compensation dial into it as well.
The obsessive need of some to have a bevy of new lenses to fill some perceived gap is really not practical. The old focal lengths, the designs of which were mostly updated quite recently, are close enough to within a few degrees that once you look through the VF you won't really even be able to tell.
I also hope that they can get the camera to go for at least 300 exposures on a charge. Additionally, why not make it have a high flash sync speed and make it compatible with some wireless flash protocol such as from Metz! That would really increase the utility of the camera and broaden its application base.
I don't think Leica should screw around making 23mm and 26mm and 31mm and other strange focal length lenses to compensate for a paltry few MM of lens width in a given direction. That smacks of lunacy. Give the camera proper framelines for the 15, 21, 24 / 28, 35, 50, and maybe the 75 lenses, and the real kicker is to come out with a 15mm f/2.8 that is not only competitively priced with the Cosina Zeiss lens, but also has RF coupling.
A 21 f/2 would be nice too.
It should have a manually operated ISO dial, placed hopefully where it always has been. Hopefully they can work the exposure compensation dial into it as well.
The obsessive need of some to have a bevy of new lenses to fill some perceived gap is really not practical. The old focal lengths, the designs of which were mostly updated quite recently, are close enough to within a few degrees that once you look through the VF you won't really even be able to tell.
R
RML
Guest
Sukiari said:
My R-D1 easily does 300 shots on a charge. That is, a fully charged original Epson battery, not the generic ones I have.