GMOG
Well-known
Greetings! I've been lurking on this site for a while now, after finding a lot of good information here related to servicing old Leica screw mount cameras. I'm a Swiss and USA certified watchmaker, and a photographer. I spent years specializing in Rolex service, but now I only work on vintage watches, wrist and pocket. When I get photo work it's on the commercial side of the spectrum. I've got a few camera repair successes under my belt, including the servicing of a few large format Copal and other similar shutters. I also replaced the 1st shutter curtain in a Canon II-F I own and now shoot photos with.
Anyway, what brings me here is a question I have about a Leica IIIa I have on the bench now. It has too much oil in it, and I want to take the shutter rollers out and apart so I can properly clean these parts before applying fresh oil.
Here's as far as I've gotten:
I can't remove the rollers and curtains because I cannot remove the "perforated settings disc" up top:
I have removed the screw, but the disc will not come off the shaft easily. I've tried rotating it but cannot get good enough grip. I've tried gentle prying to no avail. I also tapped the shaft with a small brass watchmaker's hammer, to see if I could push it through, but it won't budge and I dare not apply more force.
Any tips for getting this piece off without damaging anything? Is there a special puller for this job?
It appears I could remove the rollers after removing the gear that's mounted to the lower end of the shaft, but that would leave the shaft in place and prevent me from cleaning those parts up top like I'd like to.
Something I notice about this shutter, and is why I want to take it apart for a good cleaning, is that the speeds vary greatly between when the camera is cold (~40F ambient temp), compared to the speeds when at higher temps (~70F ambient temp). When cold 1/1000 is way too fast (1/2000 - 1/3000, or not measurable) and unusable I'm sure. When warmer 1/1000 = 1/700 or thereabouts. In both situations the speeds are closer and usable as you go down from fastest to slowest, but cold always presents a bias towards being fast. I've read about people using these cameras in cold weather without trouble, so I'd like to get this one to perform more consistently.
My theory is that the abundance of oil is causing the problem. When cold the oil thickens, and since there's too much of it in there it has a greater impact on timing. The oil could also be too viscous for this application, which gives me more cause to remove it and lube with some fine, light synthetic watch oil.
Thanks for reading!
PS - I'm using a Phochron XA shutter tester, with the sensor for focal plane 35mm shutters.
Anyway, what brings me here is a question I have about a Leica IIIa I have on the bench now. It has too much oil in it, and I want to take the shutter rollers out and apart so I can properly clean these parts before applying fresh oil.
Here's as far as I've gotten:
I can't remove the rollers and curtains because I cannot remove the "perforated settings disc" up top:
I have removed the screw, but the disc will not come off the shaft easily. I've tried rotating it but cannot get good enough grip. I've tried gentle prying to no avail. I also tapped the shaft with a small brass watchmaker's hammer, to see if I could push it through, but it won't budge and I dare not apply more force.
Any tips for getting this piece off without damaging anything? Is there a special puller for this job?
It appears I could remove the rollers after removing the gear that's mounted to the lower end of the shaft, but that would leave the shaft in place and prevent me from cleaning those parts up top like I'd like to.
Something I notice about this shutter, and is why I want to take it apart for a good cleaning, is that the speeds vary greatly between when the camera is cold (~40F ambient temp), compared to the speeds when at higher temps (~70F ambient temp). When cold 1/1000 is way too fast (1/2000 - 1/3000, or not measurable) and unusable I'm sure. When warmer 1/1000 = 1/700 or thereabouts. In both situations the speeds are closer and usable as you go down from fastest to slowest, but cold always presents a bias towards being fast. I've read about people using these cameras in cold weather without trouble, so I'd like to get this one to perform more consistently.
My theory is that the abundance of oil is causing the problem. When cold the oil thickens, and since there's too much of it in there it has a greater impact on timing. The oil could also be too viscous for this application, which gives me more cause to remove it and lube with some fine, light synthetic watch oil.
Thanks for reading!
PS - I'm using a Phochron XA shutter tester, with the sensor for focal plane 35mm shutters.
Attachments
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
It just an axle of drum. If you want to make a difference, you need to remove two rollers and get into the springs in them.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
You can use a small pulley extractor to remove shutter speed timing disc after the holding screw is removed .
If everything was rotating fine shutter-wise before the tear down and the shutter tapes and curtain material is still in good shape ...it is simpler just to carefully slight flood clean the bearing spot surfaces areas with 99% ethyl alcohol and then lubricate the rotating points, all done with syringes and without getting any fluids on the shutter tapes or shutter curtains, while everything is left in place.
Remember, it is better to be stingy with evaporative cleaners and solvents and lube oils then to apply too much, as they can creep in unwanted places and come to haunt you later on.
If everything was rotating fine shutter-wise before the tear down and the shutter tapes and curtain material is still in good shape ...it is simpler just to carefully slight flood clean the bearing spot surfaces areas with 99% ethyl alcohol and then lubricate the rotating points, all done with syringes and without getting any fluids on the shutter tapes or shutter curtains, while everything is left in place.
Remember, it is better to be stingy with evaporative cleaners and solvents and lube oils then to apply too much, as they can creep in unwanted places and come to haunt you later on.
GMOG
Well-known
That is part of my intentions. How does one unhook the spring? I figured I'd be able to see how when I get the parts loose.
GMOG
Well-known
I lack a puller small, or large enough for the job. I'd have already tried that if I had one!
While I do appreciate the suggestion, as a trained and certified watch service provider I cannot justify in my mind any use of "flood" type cleaning!
It doesn't actually remove contamination; It just moves it around. I've seen the results of this kind of approach in watches and find that it doesn't work very well. The crud/old oil just ends up somewhere else where it will continue to cause problems. I will take this stuff apart and run what I can through my ultrasonic cleaner. The rest I will clean off using alcohol-soaked swabs and bits of Pec-Pad.Yes, the creeping excesses of oil had gotten into the space up top where the rangefinder is. It was covering the various surfaces of the cage. And it was inundating the parts on the bottom, the brake and tension adjusters. I've sopped a bunch of it up using alcohol-soaked swabs but it's still creeping out of the rollers on the tension side especially. All of this is the result of yours truly getting a little squirt happy with my syringe of oil. It's not exactly easy to see how much oil is getting into things doing it that way.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
I lack a puller small, or large enough for the job. I'd have already tried that if I had one!
While I do appreciate the suggestion, as a trained and certified watch service provider I cannot justify in my mind any use of "flood" type cleaning!
Yes, the creeping excesses of oil had gotten into the space up top where the rangefinder is. It was covering the various surfaces of the cage. And it was inundating the parts on the bottom, the brake and tension adjusters. I've sopped a bunch of it up using alcohol-soaked swabs but it's still creeping out of the rollers on the tension side especially. All of this is the result of the owner getting a little squirt happy with his syringe of oil. It's not exactly easy to see how much oil is getting into things doing it that way.
If you got a file and a hacksaw and a vise and some mild steel and a 1/4" bolt and nut you can make a suitable pulley extractor.
If everything was rotating fine before teardown and the camera was not dropped in water or in a sand storm then a complete dis -assembly is not really necessary, a camera is a fine instrument but it is not a watch and careful cleaning and lubrication will more than suffice.
Only the grimiest cameras with seized bearings need a 100% teardown and you usually need a donor parts camera body, as many parts will need replacing in seriously damaged cameras..your IIIa looks fairly good from your provided photo.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
GMOG
Well-known
All good thoughts. I appreciate it. But frankly, I believe my mind is made up to take it all the way down for my own learning benefit. As it is I'm almost there, so why not? It wouldn't be the first time I took something apart that didn't "need" it!
GMOG
Well-known
Thanks for that. I've studied my copy of that manual multiple times, and have paid attention to that diagram. While it doesn't tell me how to unhook the spring, it does provide enough clues that I think I can figure it out.
So far I have explored many of the materials available to us here on the Learning Camera Repair site. It's an incredible resource for someone like me who is getting into working on vintage cameras of different types.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
All good, one can at least learn a lesson or two from frustrations and hiccups from doing necessary and unnecessary work that you never done before...all part of the experience of work and of life too.
The next Barnack Leica work experience will be smoother and easier than this one...you will be much better prepared, you will have the right tools at hand and the right know how. Good luck.
GMOG
Well-known
Exactly! I see this job as prep for whatever's next. Here it is in front of me, so why not dive in!
I take to heart all of the suggestions you've made. Those, too, will play into how things go in the future.
GMOG
Well-known
I got the settings disc off the shaft, and have the rollers and curtains with ribbons out of the crate. I ended up using a little heat applied to the disc's hub using a soldering iron, and then prying it off using a beat up pair of brass tweezers on either side of the shaft. I bent the disc a little with my tweezers, but was able to straighten it out fine. I wonder if a puller for this job could be made to fit the holes in the disc's hub, rather than fitting and pulling on the outer edge of the disc. I found after removing the disc that the shaft was burred up around the holes for the screw, so I cut them off and made sure the shaft is smooth with a fine Arkansas stone.
After looking at and thinking about the cam/bushing assembly in the hole in the top plate I decided to leave it in place. I flushed that assembly with alcohol a few times, blew dry and called it good. Seemed like a good flushing was adequate for that situation; easy to get the solution in and out. I'd appreciate any info on how it's is taken apart properly. I see the set screw and removed it, but it's a tight fit like everything else. I don't want to mess anything up.
Here's a shot showing some of that excess oil creeping out of the 1st curtain roller, and this after several rounds of soaking the stuff up top and bottom:
And here's what it looks like on the other end:
The looks of that oil isn't so great, so I'm glad to be going through all this. There's obviously some contamination in there, the leftovers from decades of use and neglect.
Now I need to figure out how to take the tension rollers apart to get to the springs. Looks like I need to remove the ribbon from the top end of the 2nd curtain roller to reveal the cap. And for the 1st it appears I will have to separate the curtain from its roller. I can't find procedural info on these earlier rollers. M rollers appear to have a threaded cap. Anybody know for sure?
1st curtain and related parts:
After looking at and thinking about the cam/bushing assembly in the hole in the top plate I decided to leave it in place. I flushed that assembly with alcohol a few times, blew dry and called it good. Seemed like a good flushing was adequate for that situation; easy to get the solution in and out. I'd appreciate any info on how it's is taken apart properly. I see the set screw and removed it, but it's a tight fit like everything else. I don't want to mess anything up.
Here's a shot showing some of that excess oil creeping out of the 1st curtain roller, and this after several rounds of soaking the stuff up top and bottom:
And here's what it looks like on the other end:
The looks of that oil isn't so great, so I'm glad to be going through all this. There's obviously some contamination in there, the leftovers from decades of use and neglect.
Now I need to figure out how to take the tension rollers apart to get to the springs. Looks like I need to remove the ribbon from the top end of the 2nd curtain roller to reveal the cap. And for the 1st it appears I will have to separate the curtain from its roller. I can't find procedural info on these earlier rollers. M rollers appear to have a threaded cap. Anybody know for sure?
1st curtain and related parts:
Attachments
picture_man124
Newbie
May i know how did you remove the bottom plate? I'm trying to remove it to clean the gears connected to the big drum. I already removed visible screws, i can wiggle the bottom plate but i cant fully remove it like something is still keeping it attached.Greetings! I've been lurking on this site for a while now, after finding a lot of good information here related to servicing old Leica screw mount cameras. I'm a Swiss and USA certified watchmaker, and a photographer. I spent years specializing in Rolex service, but now I only work on vintage watches, wrist and pocket. When I get photo work it's on the commercial side of the spectrum. I've got a few camera repair successes under my belt, including the servicing of a few large format Copal and other similar shutters. I also replaced the 1st shutter curtain in a Canon II-F I own and now shoot photos with.
Anyway, what brings me here is a question I have about a Leica IIIa I have on the bench now. It has too much oil in it, and I want to take the shutter rollers out and apart so I can properly clean these parts before applying fresh oil.
Here's as far as I've gotten:
I can't remove the rollers and curtains because I cannot remove the "perforated settings disc" up top:
I have removed the screw, but the disc will not come off the shaft easily. I've tried rotating it but cannot get good enough grip. I've tried gentle prying to no avail. I also tapped the shaft with a small brass watchmaker's hammer, to see if I could push it through, but it won't budge and I dare not apply more force.
Any tips for getting this piece off without damaging anything? Is there a special puller for this job?
It appears I could remove the rollers after removing the gear that's mounted to the lower end of the shaft, but that would leave the shaft in place and prevent me from cleaning those parts up top like I'd like to.
Something I notice about this shutter, and is why I want to take it apart for a good cleaning, is that the speeds vary greatly between when the camera is cold (~40F ambient temp), compared to the speeds when at higher temps (~70F ambient temp). When cold 1/1000 is way too fast (1/2000 - 1/3000, or not measurable) and unusable I'm sure. When warmer 1/1000 = 1/700 or thereabouts. In both situations the speeds are closer and usable as you go down from fastest to slowest, but cold always presents a bias towards being fast. I've read about people using these cameras in cold weather without trouble, so I'd like to get this one to perform more consistently.
My theory is that the abundance of oil is causing the problem. When cold the oil thickens, and since there's too much of it in there it has a greater impact on timing. The oil could also be too viscous for this application, which gives me more cause to remove it and lube with some fine, light synthetic watch oil.
Thanks for reading!
PS - I'm using a Phochron XA shutter tester, with the sensor for focal plane 35mm shutters.
GMOG
Well-known
It sounds to me like you've still got a screw to remove but it could be something else. In times like this the best recommendation I can make is to pull it apart as much as you safely can while feeling for where the resistance is located. You might have to look at it for a while before you see what's preventing it from coming apart.