[New test photos released] Leica Summicron 35/2 Eight Element copy made in China

[f.hayek]

Although released in 1958, the design and glass choice predated it by several years.
Whilst they did have colour film, it was expensive and more commonly used by working photographers than the average amateur.
1950's lenses were for the most part created with B&W film in mind. I have never found the color saturation from these older lenses to be all that compelling, oft on the desaturated or pastel side. The great popularity of Kodachrome was in part due to vivid colors it created using "dull" lenses of the era.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

FH, Kodachrome apparently was created for the movie industry in 1935... Yes, the lenses of the era were different but Leica wasn't new to the industry in 1958. To say that the Summicron "was designed primarily for bw film," is an assumption in my opinion. Since we're trading opinions here, I believe Leica was in fact designing for the pros and not for the amateurs. In 1958, magazine covers were in colour. National Geographic has nice colour photos in their magazine in 1954.

 

[f.hayek]

FH, Kodachrome apparently was created for the movie industry in 1935... Yes, the lenses of the era were different but Leica wasn't new to the industry in 1958. To say that the Summicron "was designed primarily for bw film," is an assumption in my opinion. Since we're trading opinions here, I believe Leica was in fact designing for the pros and not for the amateurs. In 1958, magazine covers were in colour.

I am aware of Kodachrome's history from the 30's when the issue with uncoated lenses and glass types were even more acute.
B&W remained dominant throughout the 1950's and the rapid shift for amateurs was most noticeable the following decade. Price was a big factor, though the expectation of colour images likely coincided with the shift toward colour television.

 

[shawn]

There were no digital sensors then. It is most likely a sensor issue in the end.

That CCD sensors bloom is well known.

Shawn

 

[Erik van Straten]

Leica M2/LLL Summicron 35mm f/2/TMY400-2/IlfordMGFB

The photographer T.H.

Erik.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Very nice tonality Erik!

 

[Erik van Straten]

Very nice tonality Erik!

Thanks! I'm also happy with the sharpness and the bokeh.


Erik.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Thanks! I'm also happy with the sharpness and the bokeh.


Erik.

Thanks for the visual review of the lens Erik. I continue to stand in line. It's gratifying to see & hear the responses which tip their hat to the replica!

 

[f.hayek]

Erik's B&W example is why monochrome shooters treasure older lower-contrast optics like the 8-element.

For my Monochrom v.1, I've a collection of 1950's lenses for just such an occasion.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Erik's B&W example is why monochrome shooters treasure older lower-contrast optics like the 8-element.

For my Monochrom v.1, I've a collection of 1950's lenses for just such an occasion.

You know F Hayek I agree with you. These days HD (especially in digital) is the in thing. People want to get hit over the head with quick 'brighter than life' images.... In film it started happening with Velvia. I am a monochrome film enthusiast but I do appreciate as an example the subtle work of dye-transfer. I wasn't trying to argue about colour film, but for someone to put an original 8 element Summicron, or a LLL replica on a digital camera and then comment about how the lens was made for bw.... there's a big assumption...it's a non-sequiter. (sorry Raid, just trying to give an honest opinion, not meaning to step on your photographic toes).

If i were a colour photographer (and i did do some colour work as a student.... with 50's & '60s Leica lenses, including the v1 35 Summicron and 50mm [v 56-68])... I'd have no problem using that era (or the replica) of lenses for the work.

 

[f.hayek]

If i were a colour photographer (and i did do some colour work as a student.... with 50's & '60s Leica lenses, including the v1 35 Summicron and 50mm [v 56-68])... I'd have no problem using that era (or the replica) of lenses for the work.

I wouldn't either, but neither would they be my first choice. All a matter of taste. Over at Leica Users Forum they have a thread for older lenses. The muted colours appeal to some. Definitely a distinctive aesthetic.

 

[raid]

That CCD sensors bloom is well known.

Shawn

I don't see it as a big issue for the replica. It is a fine lens overall. Is it 100% the replica of the Summicron? I do not know. The two lenses are very similar for sure.

 

[raid]

Leica M2/LLL Summicron 35mm f/2/TMY400-2/IlfordMGFB

The photographer T.H.

Erik.

Your excellent B&W prints show the replica to be a wonderful lens in your hands.

 

[raid]

That CCD sensors bloom is well known.

Shawn

This is good to know, Shawn.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Your excellent B&W prints show the replica to be a wonderful lens in your hands.

Thank you, Raid.

A couple of years ago people said that I could get excellent results even when I used a jam jar bottom instead of a lens.

But no, joking aside, all I can say is that the LLL Summicron is a truly great lens in itself.

Erik.

 

[D&A]

I too like to use lower contrast older lenses with my monochrom MM1 such as the rigid cron. Interestingly I don't find the Leica 8 element nor the replica lens quite fits into that category. Both have moderate to higher contrast and quite vivid color (when shooting color). The bokeh and sharpness of the replica is excellent as is its high level of performance. What I personally prize most is the way it draws; its character... very similar and close to the original 8 element but with some small but noticeable differences as I mentioned I observed (in an earlier posting). The icing on the cake is its construction and precise adjustment for focusing accuracy.

I did a lot of B&W and color film processing and printing up until a number of years ago and the replica has me wanting to get back to it. It's a gem and very versatile lens.

Lovely environmental portrait Erik and agree with Raid, the tonality is excellent.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Erik van Straten]

I found this in an article from lhsa.org by ... Jason Schneider (Sep 5, 2018):

"But as far as Leica goes, they have staked their claim into the digital realm. They can’t reissue older designs due to the restrictions of the digital sensors and the very short lens registration, 27.8mm…. Leica (is) designing the nodal point of their new fleet of lenses farther forward so the light rays are more perpendicular to the sensor…. you can’t use (many superb classic lenses) on what Leica sees as their future, without workarounds and image compromise."

Read more here: https://lhsa.org/2018/09/rare-earth-glass-leica-lenses-a-quick-and-quirky-overview/

 

[shawn]

Yes, the angle of light is where the color shifts and vignetting come from. Film doesn't care what angle the light hits it from. Sensors are more like a collection of holes... if the light hits straight on the entire bottom of the hole is illuminated, if light hits from an angle not all of the bottom of the hole is illuminated. Microlenses and things like that try and fill the holes more evenly from off angle light.

Additionally the filter and glass on top of the sensor can act as another element in a lens which can alter field curvature and cause smearing in the image when the light from the lens isn't perpendicular to the filter stack. This smearing is more than just a lens that is soft in the corners. This stack, and smearing, varies between cameras too.

For example the same lens (Voigtlander 21f4) at f5.6 on a Sony A7RII and a Leica M240.

They both smear but the Sony does it more. On film this lens doesn't do that.

And here is the Voigtlander vs a Kobalux 21mm at f5.6 on the m240.

The Kobalux is retrofocus so the light is more perpendicular to the sensor and doesn't smear nearly as much on the Leica or Sony.

FWIW, the replica lens only has a touch of smearing right in the extreme corners wide open on the Leica.

Shawn

 

[shawn]

This article talks a bit more about how light angle alters sensor performance.

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html

But it doesn't really get into the smearing aspects of the filter stack.

As far as older RF lens designs on digital sensors the issue tends to be worse the wider the lens but also depends upon the design of the lens itself as shown above. I've seen slight differences between 50mm on different sensors but they are minor.

Shawn

 

[Erik van Straten]

Thank you, Shawn for this great explanation. Many years ago I knew this, but those things I tend to forget.


Erik.