[New test photos released] Leica Summicron 35/2 Eight Element copy made in China

When I look at Voiglander I see that their fast lenses of old style design are often over extended a bit, vignette a lot, and do not have the color (and sometimes OOF) characteristics of the Leica they imitate. For me this is a deal breaker for many of the the fast lenses they make.

My vote goes straight to the big ones: Following the 8E Cron and V1 Noct I think its should be the 50mm F1.0 Noct and the 75mm f1.4 Lux. Then the Pre-Aspherical 35 Lux all in M-Mount. These are the pride of Leica so why wouldn't we go straight there before hitting all the weird ones. I am also in agreement with replicating any of the ELCAN lenses as well. That just makes sense to me...The 90mm F1 ELCAN would be the coolest thing I can dream up.

Great post!

I agree about the various Voigtlander lenses you mentioned in respect to how they compare against the Leica designs they apparently copy. I have or had a number of those and none of them stuck around, other than the 40/1.4 (because of its rendering quirks). On the other hand, Cosina's recent 'modern' designs have been technically very impressive. I use the 35/1.7 M version regularly and have no desire to replace it with a Leica equivalent.

Where the LLL project is so promising, as you suggest, is how carefully and closely it appears to truly clone the original Cron 8E, both in ergonomics and optics. Even if Cosina successfully cloned some of the Leica classics, they'd probably house them in ergonomically inferior bodies, as they've done with the aforementioned 35/1.7, or the second version 50/1.5.

Regarding the ELCAN lenses: I believe Kevin mentioned earlier that because those are so rare (and therefore expensive), and the potential difficulty digging up their patents (if any exist), it is much more challenging for LLL to precisely duplicate them. From the sounds of it, LLL's process includes disassembling at least one copy of the original Leica lens for careful measurement and testing of the parts.
 
Hello


First a late thank you to kevin for all your answers ( 768 on page 20 ) . Your intentions and approach to this project is clearer to me now . If I understand you well , it means your MC coating uses the same process as your SC , that is the same as the original . This coating , like on some other Leitz lenses of this period , has not the best reputation . And I already have an original one so I will personnally pass on this one .
But man , this Noctilux 1.2 project ! I will definitly count my coins next year to finance this dream . For me this lens is really special because of the groundbreaking design philosophy , especially regarding the competition , and of course the magnificent construction quality , second to none IMHO ( I had the chance to handle some and try it once ) . I'm sure you'll all do your best to mentain the feel and finish of the original .
As a side note , I think the way you choose the lenses to replicate is the best : the ones with market prices not related to rarity : I mean , about 2450 ex. for the original 1.2 is not that rare and it sells for !?!$ Regarding speculative prices , you could be interested in Kinoplasmat 1.5 or other beautifully crafted pre-war Meyer lenses , original early 30's nickel Zeiss LTM lenses , or curiosities like Angenieux M1 0.95/50 , Zunows , the original Konica 1.2/60, the Nikkor-N 1.1 LTM ( this 2 last ones are ultra rare though ) ... In the end , do what passionates you , because craftmanship , even at the highest level is not enough ...
Best regards


Vincent
 
Kevin,

... just back to the replica 35mm Summicron for a minute...

I've ordered a black paint one but am also considering a chrome LTM version when they are available.

My question: is the chrome version chrome paint or chrome plated?

Would you expect the chrome finish to be more durable than black paint?

The chrome version in your photographs looks beautiful 😀

Thank you.
 
Hello


First a late thank you to kevin for all your answers ( 768 on page 20 ) . Your intentions and approach to this project is clearer to me now . If I understand you well , it means your MC coating uses the same process as your SC , that is the same as the original . This coating , like on some other Leitz lenses of this period , has not the best reputation . And I already have an original one so I will personnally pass on this one .
But man , this Noctilux 1.2 project ! I will definitly count my coins next year to finance this dream . For me this lens is really special because of the groundbreaking design philosophy , especially regarding the competition , and of course the magnificent construction quality , second to none IMHO ( I had the chance to handle some and try it once ) . I'm sure you'll all do your best to mentain the feel and finish of the original .
As a side note , I think the way you choose the lenses to replicate is the best : the ones with market prices not related to rarity : I mean , about 2450 ex. for the original 1.2 is not that rare and it sells for !?!$ Regarding speculative prices , you could be interested in Kinoplasmat 1.5 or other beautifully crafted pre-war Meyer lenses , original early 30's nickel Zeiss LTM lenses , or curiosities like Angenieux M1 0.95/50 , Zunows , the original Konica 1.2/60, the Nikkor-N 1.1 LTM ( this 2 last ones are ultra rare though ) ... In the end , do what passionates you , because craftmanship , even at the highest level is not enough ...
Best regards


Vincent
Thanks for valuable input! What is the issue with the multi-coating? I'm considering getting the 8-elements multi-coated for flare resistance and (what i thought) a more durable coating. I assumed it would be a modern multi-coating which is very durable.
 
Kevin,

... just back to the replica 35mm Summicron for a minute...

I've ordered a black paint one but am also considering a chrome LTM version when they are available.

My question: is the chrome version chrome paint or chrome plated?

Would you expect the chrome finish to be more durable than black paint?

The chrome version in your photographs looks beautiful 😀

Thank you.

I’m interested in this question too.
 
Hello Applet


I was thinking the same , but MC is just several differents single coatings 😀... I have some optical notions , but I'm certainly not a coating expert . I assume if the process , the materials used to coat are the same , the plus and the minus will be the same . We have to respect them to try replicate the original as close as possible . Imagine if they modify something , even with the best intentions , some purists will send stones at them . Of course they are listening to suggestions , but I think that beside some options ( MC , brass finish , engravings ) they don't want to go too far from the original . They could tell it themselves , but we could also just choose by ourselves . Nothing aggressive here , it's just that they have to handle a production with minimal quantity to propose an incredible price in the end !
Best regards


Vincent
 
I have a modern multicoated 35/2 ZM and a single coated Summicron V1 35/2 so I chose a SC replica here. I want a true clone.
It is interesting that some people here find the CV 35/1.4 as excellent while others could not accept the distortion observed by them. Does this imply poor quality control or different views on same lens?

I agree with the positive views on the CV 50/1.5.
 
Well, about the Nokton 35 different optinions... I think this lens has been plagued by some well known reviewers that indicate an innacceptable amount of distortion.

I measured the values on many samples of the v1 nokton 1.4 and, yes it has distortion. The other thing I noticed is that in real life picture, you only ever see this actual distortion once in a while.

Another thing I noticed is that this lens is as good at f4 as the 35 f2 king of bokeh lens, sharpness wise and bokeh wise. I don't remember where, but I think Tom Abrahamsson compared this Nokton with the pre asph summilux. The Nokton appeared to be better wide open 😉

Now, Voigtlander actually made a v2 of this Nokton. They corrected the field of focus flatness a lot. And surprising thing too, they corrected distortion by 30% too. (from 3% to 2%)

To me, it is honnestly an excellent lens. And it actually is good that some people here can't stand these little drawbacks as it helps keeping its prices low 🙂
 
Regarding the 7Artisans lenses, I've read a few times that they do not ship properly calibrated and that you have to do it yourself. My understanding is that this is not the case for this lens. I don't have a digital camera, so this really is not acceptable for me.
 
I tend to agree with Vincent on the 35 Nokton rep. It is wonderful, in my view technically measuring this lens is a mistake. It is the flaws wide open that make it fun and special. It provides very high quality imagery that mimics old designs for black and white film. Stop it down slightly and it behaves very well. I would not choose it for landscapes or technical work but for street shots and fun up close wide open it provides a beautifully odd view of the subject matter that I love. Old designs are “technically” inferior in almost every way to modern lens design and production. That is one of the primary reasons I love them. Old Leica glass has some of the most beautiful “flaws” of them all. If you want a technically perfect super fast 35mm piece of glass for your M at a reasonable price just buy a Zeiss ZM Distagon 35mm f1.4. That is a do it all, one and done piece of glass if you ask me. I am very excited about the 8E Cron and think it will sit nicely next to a 35mm f1.4 Nokton and 35mm f2.8 Biogon in actual use. I guess I am just a romantic sucker for the old designs.
 
Mike Johnston said the king of bokeh was good at middle apertures at moderate distances. Lenses in the normal to mild wide angle range (35-50mm) often have harsh bokeh wide open and closeup, so you should stop down a couple times to get a softer look. This is where the roundness of the aperture becomes important, and I’m impressed that the maker of this “replica” has improved on the original in this regard!
 
Josh's "Great Post" 🙂

Josh's "Great Post" 🙂

😎

The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

I have one but not the other, so I should be fine here.
I used the Nokton as a loaner by several RFF members, so I tried out the SC version and the MC version. Both were fine.


The 40mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the 35mm f1.4 Lux pre-asph design. Again, the design has been slightly manipulated to adjust focal length and maximum aperture. (a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

4. I have one but not the other 🙂

So far, I am doing well: 2 out of 2 correct


The 50mm f1.1 Nokton is a direct design copy of the Noctilux 1.0.
(poorly executed in my opinion and does not do the design justice)

I have one but not the other again!
I do not own a Noctilux, obviously.


The 50mm f1.5 Nokton is a direct design copy of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux including the special rear element.
(Probably Voigts best of its copies and caries the reputation to prove it)

I have the Nokton 50/1.5 and I love using this lens. It is not a sbig and heavy as the Nokton 50/1.1 or &Artisans 50/1.1.


The 75mm f1.8 Heliar is a direct copy of the 7.3cm f1.9 hektor as I think another member mentioned earlier in this thread.
(this is an excellent lens!)


I skipped the Heliar as I own a Summilux 75/1.4. [Josh: you have seen this lens]


There are many imitators out there but none of them seem to be able to capture the balance of flavors (specifically colors and contrast or lack there of) that Leica provides. At least in the fast lens category.

This is similar to what ex-CEO of Leica, Oliver Kaltner texted me.


What makers like Voigtlander have got right is their old style simple designs of smaller aperture lenses (specifically the 50mm f3.5 Heliar comes to mind). All of their Color Heliar and Skopar lenses will knock any photographers socks off. I mean they are absolutely stellar by any standard and have loads of character. They are also very well built and mostly in the old Leica lens ergonomic style.
The old triplets (specifically Tessar types like the Elmar) are easily recreated with today's tech in my opinion.


I agree with you, Josh. I got the first versions Heliar 50/2 and 50/3.5. Both lenses are excellent overall. The tiny 50/3.5 gets the edge here.


The fast 7Artisans glass seem to have an interesting offering but it is not in the style of Leica and is somewhat of an amalgam of 7A unique and wild style+Zeiss+Leica look heavily weighted in the Contax Sonnar glass types.

There is a reason why I got only the very first M lens by 7Artisans. I was curious. Then I stopped being curious. 😀


Kevin,
Thank you for holding the front and connecting us to this unique project.
Happy holidays all.

Yes, of course. Kevin is doing a marvelous job here.

Happy Holidays to all. May you get additional happiness, prosperity and good health.
 
The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

If this is indeed the case, 'stretching' the design to 1.4 has introduced quite a lot of distortion compared to the 8 element, which has virtually none. And at wider apertures it's not sharp like the original, either, which has excellent resolution from f/2, if slightly lower contrast wide-open. The Nokton doesn't really get sharp until it's stopped down quite a bit. Not sure about the version II, I have never tried or owned that one.

Looking forward to this replica, if it truly mimics Summicron performance it will be a winner.
 
Let's challenge these lens makers a bit more. To me, the winner will be the one that can produce a compact 35mm f1.4, classic design, with great gentle signature, 0 distortion, 0.7 minimum focus distance, no focus shift, flat focusing plane, sharp wide open, for cheap ! I can imagine it was hard to do so in the 70s, but today with CAD softwares like ZeMax and CNC grinding for optics, it shouldn't be a problem. What are you doing China ?! 😉
 
Raid,
Thanks for the user experience and comments on my post. I think few people have had as many interesting lenses (jewels) in their hands and compared their various characteristics as you have. Your thoughts have helped me with my Leica sickness over the years.

That 75mm LUX you showed me is truly amazing! I would take it and the 50 f1.0 Noct over any modern design or just about ANY other lens for that matter....it is nice to want.

I am very excited to see some testing results from a decent photographer (hopefully Kevin) with an actual 50 f1.2 Noct replica wide open at moderate distances (8-20 ft from subject daytime and night). There is a serious lack of online content that displays the diversity of character with this lens so it is a bit of a phantom to me at this point. Honestly I could care less about seeing shots of charts, graphs, 100% mag sharpness views, etc...I want to see real world results of what the character/color is like used at its intended application(s) compared to the original.
 
Many users of exotic lenses do not use them. They are stored safely.
I will ask Kevin to test a replica lens one day. I think that at one time I was sent over 20 50mm lenses and over 30 35mm lenses by RFF members. It was challenging to do with film cameras. The Canon 50/0.95 came to me with matching camera! I think I had a Noctilux 50/1. The Nikkor 50/1.1 was cool to try out.
 
I wouldn’t describe the 7Artisan lens as not properly calibrated when it comes out of the factory but rather as one that allows the user to fine tune the calibration. I remember reading elsewhere that the Cosina Zeiss 50mm f1.5 Sonnar design has a focus shift when wide open. 7Artisan just allows the user to adjust it to their liking rather than sending it back to the factory. Unfortunately, it was not marketed thusly.
 
Some thoughts from a youngish (not rich) guy:

I have been following along quietly so far and want to weigh in a bit here.

First:
I have read some confusing comments about lens design comparisons and mimicry here from some of the big makers in the style of Leica (Voigtlander) and would like to clear that up.

The 35mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the V1 35mm 8-element Cron design. The design has been slightly stretched to extend it to open up to 1.4. (great single coated and a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

The 40mm f1.4 Nokton is a direct copy of the 35mm f1.4 Lux pre-asph design. Again, the design has been slightly manipulated to adjust focal length and maximum aperture. (a phenomenal lens...try it stopped down slightly)

The 50mm f1.1 Nokton is a direct design copy of the Noctilux 1.0.
(poorly executed in my opinion and does not do the design justice)

The 50mm f1.5 Nokton is a direct design copy of the original 50mm f1.2 Noctilux including the special rear element.
(Probably Voigts best of its copies and caries the reputation to prove it)

The 75mm f1.8 Heliar is a direct copy of the 7.3cm f1.9 hektor as I think another member mentioned earlier in this thread.
(this is an excellent lens!)

There are others of coarse but I wanted to speak specifically about these because a lot of discussion here seems to be centered around interest in these rare old style fast lenses at these focal lengths ranges.

I have a vested interest in what this creator is doing and based on what I have seen from Kevin's "really nice" tests I will be putting my money and support into this project. It seems that just maybe this team of builders are close to capturing the "soul" that Leica has imbued into their older fast glass. There are many imitators out there but none of them seem to be able to capture the balance of flavors (specifically colors and contrast or lack there of) that Leica provides. At least in the fast lens category.

When I look at Voiglander I see that their fast lenses of old style design are often over extended a bit, vignette a lot, and do not have the color (and sometimes OOF) characteristics of the Leica they imitate. For me this is a deal breaker for many of the the fast lenses they make. What makers like Voigtlander have got right is their old style simple designs of smaller aperture lenses (specifically the 50mm f3.5 Heliar comes to mind). All of their Color Heliar and Skopar lenses will knock any photographers socks off. I mean they are absolutely stellar by any standard and have loads of character. They are also very well built and mostly in the old Leica lens ergonomic style.
The old triplets (specifically Tessar types like the Elmar) are easily recreated with today's tech in my opinion.

The fast 7Artisans glass seem to have an interesting offering but it is not in the style of Leica and is somewhat of an amalgam of 7A unique and wild style+Zeiss+Leica look heavily weighted in the Contax Sonnar glass types.

I do not have the money to throw down on Leica fast and/or collectible glass. The point I am trying to make is that we should really take the time to provide valuable feedback to Kevin and the engineers and workers at LLL. We should consider what has already been done and done well, what is available to us at a reasonable price on the current market vs what is realistically out of reach for most and what makes the most sense to knock out first. Who knows how far these guys will be able to take this project. It seems that they value the feedback coming from this forum and so while the iron is hot lets make sure we provide them with concise and valuable information.

My vote goes straight to the big ones: Following the 8E Cron and V1 Noct I think its should be the 50mm F1.0 Noct and the 75mm f1.4 Lux. Then the Pre-Aspherical 35 Lux all in M-Mount. These are the pride of Leica so why wouldn't we go straight there before hitting all the weird ones. I am also in agreement with replicating any of the ELCAN lenses as well. That just makes sense to me...The 90mm F1 ELCAN would be the coolest thing I can dream up.

Kevin,
Thank you for holding the front and connecting us to this unique project...I am sure its a bit messy for you at the moment. I am very excited to try my 8E Cron with the hopes that is has the 'soul" that has made me lust over Leica glass above all others for the past several years. If I had to throw out one critical stress point while making these clones it would be get the color pallet and contrast (micro contrast) ratio per design just right to the original...this is something most makers cannot do. I know you are overwhelmed here and I hope that our over exuberance and tedious requests with this project do not break you down in any way.

Happy holidays all


Hi Joshua,

I really appreciate you take the time to write such a long and very supportive post. It means a lot to the Maker and me. That is one of the reasons why I choose RFF to share this project and let our forum members get the first chance to try out the 8-element replica. I am sure that the first batch is very special. You guys will know what I mean. We have many forum members like you who make the community here very friendly and positive.

If their first project is a success, I am sure there will be more exciting projects to come. 🙂

Thank you very much for your suggestions. I will also share your thought with the maker.

Best regards,
Kevin
 
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