New to forum, need bessa help

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heatherselkie

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Hi, I have been looking at rangefinderforum and reading everything possible for several months but only just finally got my registration sorted out. It was weird! I went to art school (poverty ensues!) and majored in drawing and painting after being told I couldn't major in photography and film as well. But I've always loved photography and film. my mom worked in photography eons ago and even had a darkroom in the 70's...but the chemicals made her sick and she gave it up. She has an amazing eye and takes the most stunning photos with any old camera. So photography and framing images in ones mind was always around.
I got interested in rangefinder photography this year after accidently looking at the Leica website for too long. 35 is not too old to learn new tricks is it? Back in art school I learned about rangefinder photography but it was dismissed as obsolete rubbish and we worked with slr cameras instead.
So Leica was always a mysterious thing. I reluctantly got a digital camera in 2003 after a then boyfriend insisted digital was the future and he was a "professional" photographer and everyone he knew was throwing their film cameras into the ocean blah blah blah.
I was never very happy with digital but did take amazing shots with my nikon digital thing. It cost a fortune for me and is now worth nothing. It had the dreaded image processing problem, some lcd screen problem and some other problems which nikon fixed but the camera has not performed very well ever since it's visit at Nikon and has new issues so is so bad I want to throw it into every ravine, the ocean, off cliffs, at every deer or bear i try to take a photo of. Plus my husband had two catastrophic pc computer crashes in the 5 years I have known him and lost all his photos. Some years ago even I was sitting down to back up my photos & put them onto discs when something very very bad happened and I lost four years of images.
So I wanted to go back to film for all the usual reasons, but wanted to try something new. No way I can afford a Leica M. I love well made german engineering but from experience I also know what it costs to repair well made german things. I looked at the voigtlanders and I fell in love with the olive bess R2 and had to have it. But everybody else wants olive bessas so that wasn't going well. I thought i would try a bessa T. I didn't think about having to get external viewfinders for every lens, but did get a leica multiviewfinder. The bessa t has been a disaster for many whiny and some legitimate reasons. I found I enjoyed looking into the rangefinder and all that but having to go back and forth between the viewfinder and the rangefinder resulted in lots of abstract art and frustration. It is maybe not the best camera for newbies like me-unless there is something wrong with the camera or lens. I have my eyes locked onto another olive R2 for sale. Would you recommend an R2 as a good camera for someone starting out, has glasses, little money, or what about another voigltander bessa? Also what would a good affordable lens be to start with? I have an old elimarit 90mm f4 that is pretty and I do like the framing but I need something wider for general purposes. I found f4 too limiting.
Wow, this is long!
I'm in the bush near Vancouver Canada
Thanks, Heather
 
Always nice to see someone else from BC on here. Greetings from The Island ;-)
I started out in RFs with a Bessa R and Jupiter 8. If you don't mind a screwmount camera that's a little plasticky, I really think that combo is your best bet in regards to price/performance.
 
Welcome, Heather! You have the advantage of some experiences to guide you! It is so difficult to make useful gear suggestions for someone else, that I'd just say read RFF threads and go with what you learn from that. And, must the R2 be olive (more expensive) in color? 🙂 Each Bessa model has its own advantages. Have fun shopping!
 
No, it needn't be olive, but I'm a girl, I have an olive bike, an olive coat, I like green....I am all about aesthetics as much as funcion. I just do not like the all black cameras for some reason. If I were to get a leica it would have to be a chrome one. There are some bessas that are chrome/silver too.
If I have a choice, if I can find it I would rather get the pretty green camera. Because I know if I get a black R2 and I see an olive one for sale...I'll insist on getting it.

Hey sleenrippa, any rangefinder worthy camera shops on the island? I go to Leo's Camera sometimes in Vancouver and feel like a very bad child for so much as looking at the leica section.
 
Heather,
I started RF with the Bessa R3A, then got an R4A and now have a Leica M6. Still own and use them all! Nothing wrong with any of them. The Leica maybe feels nicer in the hand (probably just the weight) but the Bessas work very well and, in fact, have some features the M6 doesn't.
The real difference is in the viewfinders.
The R3 only goes as wide a 40mm and those framelines are hard for a spectacles wearer to see. So for you it's really a 50/75/90 kind of camera.
The R4 is for wide angle lenses and doesn't go above 50mm focal length. So it's 50/35/28/25/21 - and the 21 is kind of hard to use if your wearing glasses too. Plus the 50mm framelines are very small.
The M6 has frames for 28/35/50/75/90/135. I never use 135 anyway.

The crux of the matter is really what focal lengths you think you might want to use?

My suggestion for you would be the R2A or M (Olive of course!) but you can use the A in Manual if you want to. It has framelines for 35/50/75/90 which cover most of the range you'll likely want. My only caveat would be that if you want to use a 28mm lens or wider then you'd need an accessory viewfinder. Even a lot of the earlier Leica M-series didn't have framelines for 28, so don't fret about that!

You've got the Elmarit 90 as a start. Probably a 50 and a 35 would round things out for you for some time and you could wait to see if you eventually wanted something wider - a 28 or 25 for example. CV lenses are very good and even new don't cost the earth but there's a constant trade going on in RFF Classifieds so you can pick up lenses there with reasonable assurance.
 
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Thanks Leigh. The framelines have been a source of confusion. The r2 a or m might be best for me(or an m6 sigh) with a good range. I'm fine with struggling with an external viewfinder for a wide angle lens or something super long, but not for the lenses I would use most regularly.
 
heatherselkie said:
Thanks Leigh. The framelines have been a source of confusion. The r2 a or m might be best for me(or an m6 sigh) with a good range. I'm fine with struggling with an external viewfinder for a wide angle lens or something super long, but not for the lenses I would use most regularly.
Click to expand...

There's a stack of information on all the Bessa models, lenses, viewfinders etc on the Camera Quest website. Don't fret about the M6 thing. I'm 70 and just thought I should have one before I die! The Bessas are fine cameras anyway (and the 15 year-old M6 cost $1500 body only)! I'm not getting rid of either Bessa. More likely to sell the GF-1!
 
Heather, I wear glasses and use a Bessa R4M and a Leica M2. In general, on any given rangefinder, the largest frameline -- the one that's nearest the perimeter of the image seen in the viewfinder -- is the tricky one. If I'm trying to frame precisely with that one I need to move my head around just a bit.

Much of the interplay between the viewfinder and someone wearing eyeglasses depends, I think, on each individual prescription and the kind of lenses they wear.

The classifieds here are a great place to watch for deals. The ads display a count of the number of posts made here by the seller. Many of us think it's smart to notice that because longstanding members are unlikely to damage their reputation with a bogus sale.

You may not know about KEH.com, which is an online retailer of used camera goodies with a good reputation in most circles. They're based in Atlanta. Bessas will be listed under Leica M models, probably in the "non-mfg" category. They always have lots of Leicas, while Bessas show up less frequently.

Be aware that used camera prices are strongly affected by things that have nothing to do with photographic issues or quality. Leicas have cult and collector status. Bessas don't, but seem to hold their value reasonably well. Black cameras command higher prices than silvery cameras. Olive ones, too, probably.

And... when you read your way through the Cameraquest site, pay attention to screwmount lenses and M mount lenses. A "mount" is the way a lens attaches to a camera body. Leica originally used a "screwmount" for years, later changing to the M mount. Screwmount lenses can be used on older screwmount cameras, and on M mount cameras with an adapter (which costs around 50-60 bucks new).

One other factoid: The ring around viewfinders is metal in Leicas (at least older Leicas; not sure about new models). That ring may be able to scratch eyeglass lenses, or at least give you something to worry about. Aftermarket plastic gizmos that fit on top of the metal rings are available. The rings on Bessas are plastic, if memory serves, and rubber rings can be bought to replace those.
 
Heather;

I too fell in love with the Olive R2's. And as Bill says, check out our Classifieds as well as KEH. By pure dumb luck, I stumbled upon a mint Olive R2 that I quickly snapped up and received the other day from KEH. I purchased a silver 35mm 3.5 CV from Stephen's great online site Cameraquest...A great place to shop as well as get all kinds of information from

Welcome to RFF and good luck in whatever you chose

Best
Paul
 
I have a Bessa R and find the rangefinder patch to be annoying. While focusing you have to adjust yourself to continue seeing the patch. Still, I got great results from the camera and a 35mm 2.5 MC color-skopar attached.
 
I think you should start our real simple and solid, and I do not believe a difference of a couple hundred USD will be a deal breaker here. Skip the hairdresser for a couple of months and you can afford a Leica MP 🙂...
Seriously, if you want to touch with your hand and eye the type of photography the rangefinders are all about, you should look for a good user Leica M3 or M2 - go to a second hand shop and try them in your hand, and above all look through the viewfinders. I would probably say get the M2 and a 50mm lens to begin with, the 50mm frame on M2 will be well visible for sure even with the glasses. Get a cheap small lightmeter with direct and incident readings. and learn how to expose. Then comes the lens - my advice would be to begin with a 50mm, and the ideal starting point would be the 50/2 Summicron Collapsible - again this is not an expensive lens, and you just have to make sure it is clean and in good condition. This is the lens with which HCB made most of his photographs... Finally, the film - my strong preference would be to use Tri X (or Arista Premium 400 - same stuff, costs half as much), but this implies you should develop and possibly scan yourself. If you want to make one step at a time, use Ilford XP2 and develop and scan in a lab. The Bessas are nice cameras, but they have lots of quirks and always leave you wanting for something better made, and if bought new they are not that much cheaper from a user Leica. Ah, final point, read this article:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/05/a-leica-year.html
 
heatherselkie said:
No, it needn't be olive, but I'm a girl, I have an olive bike, an olive coat, I like green....I am all about aesthetics as much as funcion. I just do not like the all black cameras for some reason. If I were to get a leica it would have to be a chrome one. There are some bessas that are chrome/silver too.
If I have a choice, if I can find it I would rather get the pretty green camera. Because I know if I get a black R2 and I see an olive one for sale...I'll insist on getting it.

Hey sleenrippa, any rangefinder worthy camera shops on the island? I go to Leo's Camera sometimes in Vancouver and feel like a very bad child for so much as looking at the leica section.
Click to expand...


The only store on the island where the guys are actually helpful and price their items fairly is a little two-man operation called Camera Traders in Victoria.
Camera Traders website

They're decently active on Twitter, too- you can catch the used gear as it goes on sale that minute.
 
Bessa R series cameras are as good as just about any others. Dont listen to all the Leica lovers here. Having had Leicas (and I still do have one - M5) I find that Bessa cameras are just as good and are far easier to use. Also they are cheaper to buy and you dont have to worry about the CLA. (CLA on my M6 when I had it - was more than I paid for my Bessa R2). So, get yourself a bessa - no need to spend more money on something you dont even know if it'll be "your thing". Trust me - if one day you want to get a Leica - you can still find one. Plus Bessa will give you a built-in meter, frame lines for most of the lenses, easy to load swing back, etc.

Same goes for lenses - get a CV/Voigtlander lens - they are very good and dont cost a lot. Lenses like Color-Skopar series are great to start with. Also -M- Hexanon lenses are very good - Leica quality at lower price. Nowdays it's not worth it to buy a Leica lens, unless it's one of the few unique ones, like 21 Summilux or 50/1.0 Noctilux. I know many will argue with me, but in reality - it's true.
So I'd say - bet your Bessa, get your CV lens and enjoy your rangefinder experience.
 
I bought a Leica MP first and a Bessa R4A second.

Leica advantages:
Less noisy shutter. The MP is seriously quiet, but if you don't need stealth - then it doesn't matter.

Less jolt in the shutter - I seriously feel a kick in the Bessa's shutter. It doesn't affect my images, but I'd be wary to handhold it at 1/15th sec, but the Leica, no problem

It's all mechanical - I wanted an electronic fired shutter and aperture priority, so got the Bessa. But my MP will work sans-battery just fine.

Advantages to the Bessa R4A
I really like wide angle photography without the need for external viewfinders. My 90mm is my least used lens so the 50mm max on the Bessa serves more than 75% of my needs!

It's light! It's not all that smaller than the MP, but feels significantly lighter. Great for traveling. But the MP is way lighter than my DSLR kit...

Cost - you can get a Bessa R4 (or R2, 3, etc) for around US$670 and a couple lenses for ... i like Zeiss glass, so US$800 new, less used (check the classifieds on this forum frequently, you can get like-new lenses for ~US650 or less!)

Shutter speed, max of my Leica 1/1000th sec; Bessa: 1/2000th sec. I tend to load ISO 400 film the most as I can use it during the day with a faster shutter speed and at night no problem.

I went through the process of putting together a RF kit recently and if I had to do it all over again, I would have bought:
R4A - have this
R4M - but damn, the black paint MP is nice
Zeiss 21mm 2.8 - have this
Zeiss 35mm 2.8 (i got a leica summarit, 2.5 instead)
Zeiss 50mm 2.0 - have this
Would have skipped the 90mm that I have now.

If you are just getting started, you really can't go wrong with one body and one lens (35mm or 50mm).

OK, so that's what I would have done, now you get to unravel all of these comments and pick your own!
Welcome aboard.
 
Sorry Heather!!

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Bessa R2; 21mm CV lens; 2 inch (50mm) Taylor Hobson Anastigmat:

Has performed faultlessly since I got it many years ago. I replaced the body covering with Griptac as the original covering came loose.
I have nine CV lenses all excellent and a Bessa T which is used with a Leitz Visoflex 111 for close up and 280 mm Telyt lens.
 
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Heather, there is a camera swap meet coming up at the end of November (Croatian Center - close to Kingsway and Main). I cant find the date - but will dig it out and forward it to you.
As for choosing a Bessa - any of them will do, but if you insist on an Olive Green - the R2 is the only one (though there was some Bessa T's in green too). There is at least 1 olive R3A (belongs to my wife, Tuulikki and it was a present from Mr Kobayashi).
Your best "starter" kit would be the R2 (M or A) and the Color Skopar 35f2.5 - or if you are going to be shooting a lot of low light - consider either the nokton 35f1.4 or 40f1.4.
You are better off staring with a small kit than getting it all in one go! This way you "shoot" yourself in with a camera/lens and will know what you need to add.
I use Leica's. Bessa's,Zeiss (and Nikon/Canons) - so I am not a role model for "simple" and small kits.
The Bessa R4's are brilliant for anything up to 35mm (50 is rather dinky), the R2's are similar to the Leica M2, good for 35/50/75/90 and the R3's are very good for 50/75 (and 90) - best 75 frame around (much better than Leicas 50f75 cluttered one).
As for reliability- I have at least 8 Bessa's (L/T/R//R2/R2M's/R3's and R4's) and only one has given me some problem (a R2 with a slightly wonky meter - but I just keep using it as an unmetered camera).
Check with Cameraquest and see what's available too.
 
Heather => First of all, a very hearty welcome to RFF from Fort Langley, just outside of Vancouver BC! Great to have another guy from BC join up!!!

Now let us get down to business 😉


mfogiel said:
......Seriously, if you want to touch with your hand and eye the type of photography the rangefinders are all about, you should look for a good user Leica M3 or M2 - go to a second hand shop and try them in your hand, and above all look through the viewfinders. I would probably say get the M2 and a 50mm lens to begin with, the 50mm frame on M2 will be well visible for sure even with the glasses. Get a cheap small lightmeter with direct and incident readings. and learn how to expose. Then comes the lens - my advice would be to begin with a 50mm, and the ideal starting point would be the 50/2 Summicron Collapsible - again this is not an expensive lens, and you just have to make sure it is clean and in good condition. This is the lens with which HCB made most of his photographs... Finally, the film - my strong preference would be to use Tri X (or Arista Premium 400 - same stuff, costs half as much), but this implies you should develop and possibly scan yourself. If you want to make one step at a time, use Ilford XP2 and develop and scan in a lab. The Bessas are nice cameras, but they have lots of quirks and always leave you wanting for something better made, and if bought new they are not that much cheaper from a user Leica. Ah, final point, read this article:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/05/a-leica-year.html
Click to expand...

+1 on what mfogiel writes. If aesthetics and functionality do dovetail in your assessment of a tool or any item, don't pussy foot around, get a M2. The cost differential is a moot point; if you don't like the M2, you can re-sell it for little loss -- try doing that with a Bessa. You can't lose, get a chrome M2. Many here use them almost exclusively for good reasons.

segedi said:
....you can get a Bessa R4 (or R2, 3, etc) for around US$670......If you are just getting started, you really can't go wrong with one body and one lens (35mm or 50mm)......
Click to expand...

You should find a M2 for about the same.

Krosya said:
Bessa R series cameras are as good as just about any others. Dont listen to all the Leica lovers here. Having had Leicas (and I still do have one - M5) I find that Bessa cameras are just as good.....

Same goes for lenses - get a CV/Voigtlander lens - they are very good and dont cost a lot.....
Click to expand...

Don't listen to Krosya about cameras, he likes the Leica M5, which immediately makes him extremely suspect and definitely in the minority 😉 If it were true that Bessas were as good all-round as a M2, then we'd all use Bessas....Clearly, though, we don't, and for good reasons, not just because we are retarded and like to waste money. (You know I love you Krosya!! ;P ). But, what Krosya has to say about lenses is very true, especially if you are looking at buying a new lens as a RF newbie. Strangely, Kroysa didn't suggest this, but you might take a look at a good 50/2 Hexanon lens, too.

Anyway I know your post was about the Bessa R series, but I strongly advise you to look at a chrome M2 for aesthetic, financial, reliability and educational reasons. You will learn more in one year of using a hand held meter and M2 then you will by just using the in-camera meter. It is odd but using a camera meter as a RF newbie actually limits one; if you start by using a hand held meter, you will be able to really manipulate your in-camera meters later on -- but not if you become accustomed to following them at the start. Using a M2 would help you develop more as a reader of light. I know you could do much the same with a Bessa R, just ignoring the in-camera meter, but the temptation to just use it and follow it is very strong. The M2 will make you more of a thinking photo-taker 🙂

Just my 2 canuck pennies --- again, welcome Heather! I hope you enjoy yourself here and that you enjoy whichever camera you do choose! Sincerely, Thomas
 
Thanks everybody. Yes, I've read the cameraquest website top to bottom- boy is Steve Gandy every enthusiastic. I'm a nerd, I research alot, but nothing really prepared for actually using a rangefinder. I have not tried keh.com. I have read the love letter to Leica a few times and other such commandments and thought Oh I must must have one....but to assume every budding photographer can afford what that guy recommended is unfair. I already live way way below any kind of poverty line so no haircuts for me! But my husband and I are both victim to good taste and like fabulous hand made by magical elves gear. So if I want something and put my mind to it I usually am able to save up for it if it is reasonable. I am currently paying off a touring bike which is my transportation so can't spend too much on cameras right now. It is a voigtlander bike-really well made, reliable, dependable, does everything I need-but just not as pretty or finely built as the leica bike I wanted, but works just the same. Not that I wouldn't take the Leica if I could.
So I am looking at voigtlander bessas because they cost less, work just as well, lack the cult element and will not break the bank if it breaks or falls into a ravine. I was attacked by wasps yesterday standing on a bridge over a ravine and had a camera been in my hand....oooops! Right now a Bessa R2 is sort of my budget and I know I don't need to many lenses until I figure out what I prefer.
Thanks for your help and encouragement.
 
Thomas, I will look at the M2. I have been using the lightmeter on the bessa T which could maybe account for the nasty photos? I thought Oh I better use the light meter, I have no idea what I'm doing...
Tom, my bessa T is OLIVE! That's the saddest part! I paid more for the bessa T than a beater R2 would cost and it doesn't work for me. It came without the heliar lens and viewfinder Another reason I am reluctant to get a leica-what if in the end I don't like RF? I tend to collect things and I can just imagine a leica just sitting on a shelf.
the swap sounds good.
Oh, where's the best place in Vancouver area to get film developed? My only option where I live is London drugs-is that okay? there is a kick ass photographer girl that uses film and I see her getting her stuff developed at London Drugs all the time. I remember the photolabs in town from my Kitsilano and still using film days but have read some are better than others.
 
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