New to M's.

[HSI]

Well I have my graduation from High School coming up, and I'm just a punk kid looking into buy a Leica with some money from my graduation.

My choices as of now are split between a M2 and M4.

I want the 35 framelines, thats a must.
But I also want an unmetered camera, that can take a beating.
I'm just a little worried that the cost of me getting into the M line is going to be pretty damn high, with a lens or two, CLA, and all that jazz.

Not sure if I want to take the plunge, or take the other options of going for the techno-wizardery of an F5, or going for the extened mass of a MF camera like a Rollei or Blad. Which can all run around the same price with the same kinda deals.

I'm going to be doing documentary work and street, or so I hope to be.

 

[drewbarb]

First, welcome. Second, you mention the F5- talk about extended mass. If you're thinking of carrying one of those around, try carrying a couple of bricks for a week, then reconsider the F5.

You seem to be all over the map- un-metered Leica, or an F5, or MF camera. What do you want this camera to do? What do you want it for? What do you use now, and how is it working (or not working) for you? Are you just looking for a nice new toy with graduation money?

You mention street and documentary work, which points toward the Leica. Many of us here, myself included, prefer the simplicity and elegance of the Leica- and the optics rock, of course. The F5 is probably the cheapest camera of the group you mention. Personally, I'd never choose one for street work especially, and the techno-wizardry is just stuff I don't use. Medium format is great, but again, I'd probably not use it for street/docu work, due to size and weight- and so many fewer exposures per roll is not condusive to documentary work, nor is carrying lots of extra backs- again, more weight and bulk. They are great for assignment type work where you are shooting in more controlled situations, going for a specific shot. Of course there are some small quick medium format cameras out there- see the medium format forums here, for instance, but otherwise I'm speaking in general terms about the Rolleis and 'blads you mention.

Anyway, I don't want to get all lost in every point along the way, so I'll tell you what I do. I shoot with Leicas much of the time. I have an M3 with me pretty much all the time. When I get serious and want to use a tripod and take my time to really make a picture, I mostly use large format. I shy away from more technology in my photography- I know how to expose film, I know how to light, and I know to use available light. I think the more you understand the craft, the less you need in the way of gadgets and fancy tools. Some might consider a Leica to be a fancy tool, and to be sure, there are cheaper cameras out there that will do very well most of the time. But for the sort of documentary street shooting style you mention, and especially if you want to explore the non-metered, low tech world of you-must-know-how-to-do-it-yourself shooting, an M camera might be the right way. Get an M2, M3, or any M4/M4-2/M4-P body- look around, they can be had for around $600, if you are patient. Then spend another $500-or so on a 35mm Summicron, and shoot with it for six months or so. If it's not for you, you will know by then, and you should be able to get your money back out of it.

 

[Bryce]

What sort of documentary work?
Street shooting isn't my thing, but doing it with a medium format camera is pretty trying; you can figure 3 stops less light to work with for a given amount of DOF, and mirror shake is a very real problem with SLRs.
Why is not having a meter so important to you? They can be ignored on most cameras, especially simpler ones.
Is there someplace in your neigborhood that will rent gear? It seems like you've got quite a range of tools you are considering, and narrowing it down trial by error style could prove very expensive and trying to your patience. Renting or borrowing will help you get a better idea what will work for you.
I've done it the hard way, and ended up with a list of gear that fits my needs, but there were errors made along the way.
Hope this is useful, and welcome aboard.

 

[swoop]

My Professor shoots with an M4-P that's worn well down to the brass. And he's been at it so long, he doesn't need a light meter. He just guesses exposure by eye. It's an admirable skill I've been trying to develop. Guess the exposure before exposing and see how right I am.

If you have enough cash, the M4 is suitable. And it's a Leica and in so has all the inherent reliability. Develop a few rolls and see if a CLA is really necessary. It may not be essential. Recommended yes, and something you should definitely do when you have the cash. But it needn't be a must.

You can cheapen the cost by going with the (in my opinion) two most common focal lengths. A 35mm and a 50mm. If you want strictly Leica, go for the Summicrons. They're affordable considering what they are. Scratches on the front element don't look pretty. But in reality they aren't much of an issue. So you can probably get a deal on something. Also, the Voigtlander lenses aren't bad at all. The 35 Ultron and 50mm Nokton are pretty good bets. All you'd need is an adapter for each.

If you're really low on cash, but still want an all manual camera and can go SLR. The Nikon FM2 is a pretty nice camera. And lenses for it are cheap considering no one is really in the market for it anymore. Though it does have a meter.

And a Medium Format camera of any sort excluding the rollei is just a mess. They're huge. Way different than working with a Leica or even an F5.

 

[pvdhaar]

...
My choices as of now are split between a M2 and M4.

I want the 35 framelines, thats a must.
...

I was under the impression that the M2 only has framelines for 50/90, and the entire viewfinder approximates 35mm. The M4 has the 35mm framelines (and 50/90/135 by the way).

[EDIT: Lubitel, Richard and Brian have pointed out that the M2 does have 35mm framelines]

So if the framelines are a must, then it's the M4. Another nice thing about the M4 is the 'quick load' spool. Of course, anything called 'quick load' by Leica should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does speed up loading quite a bit.

As far as a CLA is concerned, I'd advice to budget for it, or get one that's been recently overhauled. When done properly, these cameras go like a hot knife through butter (i.e. smooth all over), even if they're 30 years old.

If you're looking for lenses on a budget, then don't forget that Konica too made a couple in M-mount (28, 35, 50 and 90), that are on the same build level as the Leica lenses, but significantly more affordable on the second hand market. You could do a lot worse than that.

 

[lubitel]

M2 has 35mm framelines. Its a very well built camera and its usually the cheaper one in the M-line. M4 is going to cost you almost as much as an M6. So i would recommend an M2 if you are going for leica. If you dont have money for leica glass, you can use CV lenses or Jupiters with converters, until you save enough for an older summicron and such.

 

[richard_l]

I was under the impression that the M2 only has framelines for 50/90, and the entire viewfinder approximates 35mm...

The M2 has 35mm framelines. The entire finder is closer to a 28mm field of view.

 

[pvdhaar]

The M2 has 35mm framelines. The entire finder is closer to a 28mm field of view.

So my impression isn't correct. Please disregard my statements on the M2 framelines then.. Sorry and thanks for the corrections!

 

[ferider]

CHeck your budget. I would go for the extra lens and the M2.

Second that. And recommend the 40/1.4. The combo should run you around
US 900 in good condition.

Roland.

 

[35mmdelux]

dude, get a M4-P, an early brass top model. Then get ONE lens, a 35mm Summicron. That is all you will ever need for street or documentary work. Complete kit >$1000 (US).

Tell your parents that you don't want a motorcycle or fancy street car or expensive guitar and amp, which would be far more expensive....you will be happy with a Leica camera!

 

[sepiareverb]

There's a lot to be said for shooting with 1 lens & 1 body for a while when you're starting out. Most do it by neccessity, but it is a valuable thing to do. I'll often take one body/lens combo out for a week if I'm feeling a bit stale, and for me it is usually the 50mm. That said, I'd go for a newer body that has a meter. Nothing wrong with sunny 16, but it ain't sunny 16 everyday, and you'll grow much faster if you use a meter (IMHO). Keep an eye on what your meter says, and what you shoot at, but the meter really does make life easier. I'd rather not spend an extra three hours in the darkroom because I underexposed a stop and a half on that once in a lifetime shot. That kind of learning doesn't come cheap.
Consider the M6- much like the M4, but with that little bit of modern convience.

 

[HSI]

Thanks for all the help.
Right now I shoot at Nikon F3HP with mostly a f3.5 20, f2.8 35, and a f1.8 50.
(and an F3 with a MD-4 is no cake walk, I know what its like to haul bricks)
All very nice lenses, but it lacks in low light due to the horizontal shutter, and pretty damn load mirror compared to my brothers FM2N and my buddies FA.
I have shot unmetered in a classic Jap sleeper, the Walz Envoy 35, which is a beautiful little silver bodied FL-RF. I do enjoy the freedom, but that little punk has DIN numbers on the lens, so its a pain to adjust in a fast moving situation.
I'm no punk BTW, I'm informed.

My choice for a Leica is due to the sound and the stabiltiy.
I know the glass is world renowned.
I know that they are as tough as nails (though my F3 is a beast).
And I am considering alot the options you guys threw up.
Though I am really looking for an M4, due to slight improvements and summicrom 35 and 50 would be the only lenses I would proablly ever need.

As for the work I would like to do. I hope to do some sub-cultural work, some documentation of theater and cinemotgraphic work, and just about anything else I can get thrown at me.
I just hope to work somewhere fun, have fun, and have gear that only needs film, my input, a subjects in front of it.
Though I probally will invest in a Sesonic / Minolta / Goosen sooner or later.

So as of now a M4 with a Summicron 35, 50 would be my ideal.
Just got to be paitent.
Think otherwise anyone?

 

[sepiareverb]

You'll certainly see a difference in the lenses. I had both versions of that Nikon 50, and the 1.4/35 and the 2.8/20- every one of my Leica lenses is a noticeable step up in quality. Several M4's on ebay now- some very good deals. A M4-P under $400!

 

[cnguyen]

Hey ! I couldn't afford a Leica when I was High school. All I got was a Minolta SRT-101 and an Olympus Pen e-2. Have fun with your Leica ! 🙂

 

[HSI]

Sepiareverb, how was the 1.4 35?
Thats alwasy been one of my Nikon dream lenses, along with a Noct-Nikkor.

As for the eBay deals.
Theres some good stuff up there, thanks for the heads up.