New to printing - Couple of questions...

[Steinberg2010]

So - I've started wet printing...

However, I'm having a couple of problems controlling contrast. I'm using a colour diffuser head on an opemus 4 enlarger.

When I dial in more Magenta (which should give a harder paper grade right?) my prints become grey and washed out.
- Should I be giving more exposure at harder paper grades to achieve the same blacks?

~S

 

[tlitody]

are you using variable contrast paper? Which Paper?

And if you are using just magenta filtration, then as you dial in more magenta you will need to increase print time to compensate for the density of the filter.

 

[MartinP]

Without you giving details of the paper you are using and how you are exposing it, I'd suggest looking at this document from Ilford. On page three you will find details of exposure using a colour-head on the enlarger (which is what you are using?) and these can be taken as more-or-less generic instructions for multi-contrast papers given that a pack of Ilford filters is useable with the papers from other manufacturers.

Note especially that to expose both emulsions in the paper (necessary in most circumstances) you will want to use some yellow filtration as well, to get some low-contrast density in the picture.

You may wish to experiment with split-grade printing (making the high and low contrast exposures separately, based initially on consistent high filtration-values and variable exposure-times) in order to get a clearer idea of how the result changes with filtration. There are plenty of threads here and at Apug to provide more details if required.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The very hard grades on VC papers (5 and to a lesser extent 4) do indeed require more exposure: typically, up to a stop more.

The Opemus colour head doesn't give a very high maximum contrast. You may find it worth while to use discrete filters for hard grades (4, 4.5, 5).

There is always a single filter value that will give the same result as split grade (assuming that you do not dodge and burn under one filter but not the other), so use whichever approach you find easier or more intuitive.

There are two ways to use a colour head with VC paper. Using ONLY the one colour filtration gives shorter exposures but widely varying exposure times. Using both together, in varying proportions, gives longer exposures but more constant exposure times (up to grade 4, anyway).

Cheers,

R.

 

[MartinP]

Hmmm, after re-reading the Ilford document I linked above (due to Roger's post) I realise my printing habits exclude the possible single-filter printing approach and therefore I didn't consider that option. I have been using a version of the Ilford yellow+magenta table (on page three) for years as it makes the exposure more consistent across grades and once I had found that, for the link, I only skimmed through the rest of the pdf. For similar ease-of-use reasons, the Multicontrast sheet filters are made to be consistent except for an exposure-factor of plus one stop for grade four and up.

Good point too, as Roger noted, the Meopta heads won't go as 'hard' as the sheet contrast-filters. I should have remembered that too, as I sometimes resort to burning-in with a Grade-5 filter over the 'hole' in the tool, when there are dark details that would otherwise remain too grey.

Deep sigh.
😱

 

[Steinberg2010]

Thanks Martin, Tlitody and Roger for your responses!

I'm printing on Ilford multigrade paper and I was using single filter filtration - What's the best way to decide how much of the other filter to add on?

There is always a single filter value that will give the same result as split grade (assuming that you do not dodge and burn under one filter but not the other), so use whichever aspproach you find easier or more intuitive.

Roger I was wondering if you could expound on this as I'm a bit confused - are you saying that split grade printing is pointless and there is always one grade that you can use to print the whole page?

~S

 

[tlitody]

which enlarger are you using and what are the maximum values of Yellow and magenta you can dial in?

The datasheet that comes in a box of ilford paper gives some combined Y+M values to use as starting point. Or you can look on the Ilford website for your paper. The link MartinP gave has some Y+M values.
Many enlargers use the Kodak values which go to 200 Durst use 170 or 130 depending on which enlarger. Use the figures which most closely correspond to your enlarger.

 

[Steinberg2010]

My enlarger is a Meopta Opemus 4. Apologies to Martinp - I had assumed that was the same document that I printed out on making your first print! That document looks much more useful. I can get up to a 150 on my colour head - there is a conversion table on the ilford print-making document to show what values correspond to paper grades for a Meopta head.

I guess I can work out some exposure times from the ilford document for a meopta head?

Thanks for all your help - it's a bit confusing when you're new to it and your not quite sure what to expect!

~S

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger I was wondering if you could expound on this as I'm a bit confused - are you saying that split grade printing is pointless and there is always one grade that you can use to print the whole page?

~S

No, not pointless at all, if you find it easier or more intuitive. But unless you want to dodge and burn different areas at different contrast grades, there will always be a single grade which will give the whole sheet of paper the same grade with one exposure as you can get with two sequential split-grade exposures at different grades.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Steinberg2010]

So you're saying that if there was a portion of a print that I wanted more contrast in, I could achieve this with one exposure grade and a bit of dodging and burning - rather than two separate exposures?

Thanks for your help! I've actually been reading your black and white handbook for help, I'm finding it really useful!

~S

 

[tlitody]

My enlarger is a Meopta Opemus 4. Apologies to Martinp - I had assumed that was the same document that I printed out on making your first print! That document looks much more useful. I can get up to a 150 on my colour head - there is a conversion table on the ilford print-making document to show what values correspond to paper grades for a Meopta head.

I guess I can work out some exposure times from the ilford document for a meopta head?

Thanks for all your help - it's a bit confusing when you're new to it and your not quite sure what to expect!

~S

If you use the combined Y+M figures given for Grade 2 as a starting point. Then when you change contrast with the new figures for grade 3 or grade 2 1/2 ( I'm assuming it gives those) the print time will remain fairly constant but will probably require tweaking a little. But if you add or subtract just magenta or yellow then the print times will vary more. The idea is that the combined Y+M provide a static amount of filter density but it never works out exactly for various reasons. Its much more static than adjusting just one filter though.

 

[Steinberg2010]

I guess the best way to figure out is through test strips and then I can work out what adjustments I should be making for the different grades?

~S

 

[Roger Hicks]

So you're saying that if there was a portion of a print that I wanted more contrast in, I could achieve this with one exposure grade and a bit of dodging and burning - rather than two separate exposures?

Thanks for your help! I've actually been reading your black and white handbook for help, I'm finding it really useful!

~S

With a single exposure the contrast will remain constant but the density will vary, which is often all you need. If it's murky and dark, dodge it: if it's too light, burn it. There's quite a lot about dodging and burning in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps dodge & burn.html.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I guess the best way to figure out is through test strips and then I can work out what adjustments I should be making for the different grades?

~S

Yes

Cheers,

R.

 

[shadowfox]

No, not pointless at all, if you find it easier or more intuitive. But unless you want to dodge and burn different areas at different contrast grades, there will always be a single grade which will give the whole sheet of paper the same grade with one exposure as you can get with two sequential split-grade exposures at different grades.

Cheers,

R.

Roger,
wouldn't it take a lot of tries to get to that one single grade?

For me, multiple exposure with different grades worked well especially with high contrast negatives. And the more I do it, the better I became in estimating the two grades to use for a particular high-contrast negative.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger,
wouldn't it take a lot of tries to get to that one single grade?

For me, multiple exposure with different grades worked well especially with high contrast negatives. And the more I do it, the better I became in estimating the two grades to use for a particular high-contrast negative.

Dear Will,

Sure. And the more you did it, the better you'd get at estimating which single grade to use. The two cases are identical. As I said earlier, use whichever you find easier and more intuitive.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that I understood what you meant, not what you said, cf Rodinal below.

Cheers,

R.

 

[rodinal]

"...the better I became in estimating the two grades to use..."
grades?
did you mean times?
AFAIK, split-grade printing uses just two grades (0 and 5).

 

[shadowfox]

"...the better I became in estimating the two grades to use..."
grades?
did you mean times?
AFAIK, split-grade printing uses just two grades (0 and 5).

Not necessarily, in my case, since I'm approximating the grades using the color filters, my parameters are the pair of Yellow and Magenta filter numbers.

So in my notes I have something like:
Y:100 M:0 - 15s
Y:0 M:60 - 10s

I have no idea what the actual grade number (0-5) those really are for my particular enlarger. But I know that those combination of numbers produces the print that I am happy with.

 

[shadowfox]

Dear Will,

Sure. And the more you did it, the better you'd get at estimating which single grade to use. The two cases are identical. As I said earlier, use whichever you find easier and more intuitive.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that I understood what you meant, not what you said, cf Rodinal below.

Cheers,

R.

Roger,

Interesting, I never look at it that way.
Thanks for the education.

Will

PS: See my reply to Rodinal above.

 

[Steinberg2010]

Well just to fill you in on how it's been going, I swapped my meopta belar 50mm f4.5 for a nikkor 50mm f2.8. My prints seem to be sharper and more contrasty now.

I have tried out the split grade printing method (having previously been exposing for a single grade) and found that I got the best print yet of a negative that I have now printed about 5 times. It seems to have the best detail in the highlights and shadows with good contrast.

I do now have another question though - so far I've only printed 5x7 (Ilford multigrade RC), if I decide to print at 8x10 (also Ilford multigrade), presumably I need to increase my exposure time to adhere to the inverse square law. To calculate this new exposure time I'm going to have to use a test strip - can I use a strip of 5x7 to calculate the exposure for a sheet of 8x10?

Or in other words, are Ilford's 5x7 and 8x10 sheets at the same speed?

Many thanks for your help so far guys!

~S