New to RF photography - Bessa or what?

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Wiechel

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Hi there!

I am obviously new to rangefinder photography and to this forum as well. I have been lurching here for a while and you guys really seem like a nice bunch of people, so I think I am going to enjoy staying here.

I am used to photography using SLR and compacts. My equipment includes a Canon EOS-1n with 24/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.8 Macro and 70-200/2.8L and a Leica CM, among other things.

However, my intentions now are to throw myself head over heels into rangefinder photography, because it seems so much fun and I believe it could improve me as an amateur photographer and make me think more about my shots etc... Well, you've probably heard it all before.

Well then, let's get down to the nitty gritty: I have a friend who works for a camera distributor, and thanks to him, I have been able to borrow a Voigtländer Bessa R2 with the Nokton 35/1.2 over the weekend just to get a feel for it, and now I'm not quite sure what to buy, so I'm hoping you guys could help me out a little. These are the options I have been contemplating:

* Voigtländer Bessa R2
* Voigtländer Bessa R2A
* Voigtländer Bessa R3A
* Konica Hexar RF
* Leica M6 TTL .72

What I can say about the bessa R2 that I have borrowed is that I like the feel of it, the manualness, so to speak, and the appearance of it. It has also seemed pretty easy to operate, although I am guessing my focusing may have left something to desire (I haven't processed the rolls yet, so we'll see about that).

Now, seeing as the price for the R2 and the R2A/R3A is basically the same, are there really any disadvantages with geeting one of the A's instead? If not, which one would suit me best? I wear glasses when I don't wear contacts, so maybe the 1x is hard to use? One thing that also worries me is that the aperture priority of the A:s will make me lazy, just like my SLR has, which makes me think about getting an ordinary R2 instead. What do you reckon?

Also, I have been very nice things about the Hexar RF. Is it a better camera than the Bessas or what?

Then, of course, there are the Leicas. The M6TTL:s aren't really that expensive anymore. How much better (if any) are they, compared to the Bessas? Or would it be wiser for a newbie like me to start out with a Bessa and then be able to move on later if I should wish to?

I am guessing also, that choosing one of the cheaper alternatives may be more fun as itt would leave me with more room for buying glass of course...

I know that YMMV a lot from person to person, but I would still value your opinions, so please, keep 'em coming!

Thanks a lot!

Sincerely,
Karl Wiechel
 
Well, a Leica M6 TTL is more afforable now than when it was new, but it still will run ya $1,200 to $1,500 (USD). Compared to a Bessa that is still expensive. You have used a Bessa so you know it is a nice machine.

What lenses do you plan on using? Will you be looking for something long and fast? If so, then if a Leica is in your budget it may be the best chioce. The R3a would work fine too, but it is limited in its usablitly with wide lenses.

If you are going to keep to normal and wide lenses, than the R2 and R2a would be a good choice. You can always turn to manual mode with the R2a, which I think will be easier to do than with your EOS, so that wouldn't bother me too much.
 
An interesting choice, Karl. Start low or start high? Mix and match? So many permutations.

If your budget can take it, maybe the Leica M6 and a 50mm Summicron. That would be a high-end, classic combo that could easily take you through your first year or so of RF shooting. I mention 50mm because you've already been shooting with it and would have a good feel for the lens.

Street shooters tend to favour the 35mm focal length as their main lens. An M6 with a Voigtlander 35mm Ultron 1.7 is another nice option. But then so is a Bessa with the Ultron -- and it's less expensive. I personally like the frameline options on the R2 and R2a the best -- 35, 50, 75, 90 -- and you can use the inner part of the VF to estimate 28mm. I've not used a Hexar but the pics of them make me drool. They look like nice cams.

Whichever way you start, welcome to RFF and we'll be looking forward to your pics!

Gene
 
Welcome, Karl! You'll benefit by handling all the candidates, if possible, to get a better feel for them. And check the Cameraquest.com website for commentary about all sorts of past and present RF cameras.

I'll echo Rover's question about your expected lenses, as the framelines vary among the viewfinders. I like the 28mm field of view, so it's a strong plus for me if the camera offers parallax-corrected framelines for that focal length. Depending on the magnification you choose, the M6TTL has 28mm frames, and I believe the Hexar RF does too, but not the others. Same concern if you're a fan of 135mm lenses... and the fastest lenses will call for a long RF baseline as offered by Leica and Konica. You may or may not notice that the Bessa viewfinders, while very bright, are more picky about your exact eye position for seeing the RF spot clearly. Have fun shopping!
 
I have experience using Leica M2, M4, Bessa T and have handled the Hexar RF and Bessa R2 in store. I have never seen a R2A or R3A, only read about them.

If you can get by using an external meter, a Leica M2, M3 or M4 can be had in Sweden for about the same price as a new Bessa. An M6 will be about 50% more. The Hexar RF used can be had for about the same price as a new Bessa (there was/is one on blocket.se, or was a couple of days ago).

If you shop around, the price will be about the same, or you can save a bit going for a used Bessa, though I have not seen them second hand except in USA (= import duties).

The Leicas are the best build quality and will most likely be serviceable for a long time. Getting service for a Hexar RF should be no problem in Sweden at the moment, but I fear Bessas may have a problem getting serviced?

The Hexar RF has a darker viewfinder and some shutter lag, but have some automatic features that could be very nice and the fastest shutter of them all. It is of high quality and the batteries seems to last a very long time. Konica lenses are also very nice by the way.

The Bessas are nice, but are noisier and of somewhat less build quality, though definitely up for the task. They are also lighter which could be an issue if you are hiking for example.

Try a Leica and you will probably be sold on the silky smooth feeling.

In any case, consider the lenses first, the focal length and such can have an impact on what to get.

To answer your questions...

The Bessa *A will die when the batteries go flat, you may find the R3A too limiting with your glasses on. Otherwise I would assume them as better than the R2.
I have AE on my Mamiya 7 and you may get a bit lazier, but you do have to use it, you can switch to manual.
The Hexar RF is a better camera than the Bessas (the price new was twice as much, you get what you pay for).
For a newbie, if you think you are competent enough to judge a used camera, I would say that is way to go. A Leica will probably hold its value best, though be careful with old electronics, it can cost a bit to have it CLAd.

In any case, prices for second hand M bodies have never been lower, thanks to digital.
 
rover said:
Well, a Leica M6 TTL is more afforable now than when it was new, but it still will run ya $1,200 to $1,500 (USD). Compared to a Bessa that is still expensive. You have used a Bessa so you know it is a nice machine.

What lenses do you plan on using? Will you be looking for something long and fast? If so, then if a Leica is in your budget it may be the best chioce. The R3a would work fine too, but it is limited in its usablitly with wide lenses.

If you are going to keep to normal and wide lenses, than the R2 and R2a would be a good choice. You can always turn to manual mode with the R2a, which I think will be easier to do than with your EOS, so that wouldn't bother me too much.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the Bessa is nice. My main concern is that I won't be able to focus as accurately with it as with an M6TTL, because of the relatively much shorter EBL.

I'm not sure what lenses I would mainly use, but I'm guessing I'd start with a 35 and a 75.

I think I will opt out the R3A, because I think it might be hard to use with glasses.
 
GeneW said:
An interesting choice, Karl. Start low or start high? Mix and match? So many permutations.

If your budget can take it, maybe the Leica M6 and a 50mm Summicron. That would be a high-end, classic combo that could easily take you through your first year or so of RF shooting. I mention 50mm because you've already been shooting with it and would have a good feel for the lens.

Street shooters tend to favour the 35mm focal length as their main lens. An M6 with a Voigtlander 35mm Ultron 1.7 is another nice option. But then so is a Bessa with the Ultron -- and it's less expensive. I personally like the frameline options on the R2 and R2a the best -- 35, 50, 75, 90 -- and you can use the inner part of the VF to estimate 28mm. I've not used a Hexar but the pics of them make me drool. They look like nice cams.

Whichever way you start, welcome to RFF and we'll be looking forward to your pics!

Gene
Click to expand...
I am generally a bit tired with the 50 mm length, or rather: it would be nice to adapt to something new. Change is good.

Thanks!

Personally I don't think the Hexars look so good,, appearancewise, and also, I'm not sure I want a motor at all. I think I'm gonna opt that one out too. The price difference between it and an M6TTL just isn't big enough for me. It's either cheap (i.e. Voigt) or Leica for me I think...
 
Doug said:
Welcome, Karl! You'll benefit by handling all the candidates, if possible, to get a better feel for them. And check the Cameraquest.com website for commentary about all sorts of past and present RF cameras.

I'll echo Rover's question about your expected lenses, as the framelines vary among the viewfinders. I like the 28mm field of view, so it's a strong plus for me if the camera offers parallax-corrected framelines for that focal length. Depending on the magnification you choose, the M6TTL has 28mm frames, and I believe the Hexar RF does too, but not the others. Same concern if you're a fan of 135mm lenses... and the fastest lenses will call for a long RF baseline as offered by Leica and Konica. You may or may not notice that the Bessa viewfinders, while very bright, are more picky about your exact eye position for seeing the RF spot clearly. Have fun shopping!
Click to expand...
Thanks! Yeah, I've been browsing Stephen's site like crazy the last few weeks...

Funny, cause Stephen says the same for the Hexar finder:

"The Hexar RF's viewfinder/RF is not as bright as a Leica M, or a Voigtlander Bessa R. You need to keep your eye centered in the rangefinder exit pupil -- a bit one way or the other and the image will seem to be out of focus when it isn't."
(http://www.cameraquest.com/konicam.htm)

But then again, he sells Voigts, no? 🙂
 
hth said:
I have experience using Leica M2, M4, Bessa T and have handled the Hexar RF and Bessa R2 in store. I have never seen a R2A or R3A, only read about them.

If you can get by using an external meter, a Leica M2, M3 or M4 can be had in Sweden for about the same price as a new Bessa. An M6 will be about 50% more. The Hexar RF used can be had for about the same price as a new Bessa (there was/is one on blocket.se, or was a couple of days ago).

If you shop around, the price will be about the same, or you can save a bit going for a used Bessa, though I have not seen them second hand except in USA (= import duties).

The Leicas are the best build quality and will most likely be serviceable for a long time. Getting service for a Hexar RF should be no problem in Sweden at the moment, but I fear Bessas may have a problem getting serviced?

The Hexar RF has a darker viewfinder and some shutter lag, but have some automatic features that could be very nice and the fastest shutter of them all. It is of high quality and the batteries seems to last a very long time. Konica lenses are also very nice by the way.

The Bessas are nice, but are noisier and of somewhat less build quality, though definitely up for the task. They are also lighter which could be an issue if you are hiking for example.

Try a Leica and you will probably be sold on the silky smooth feeling.

In any case, consider the lenses first, the focal length and such can have an impact on what to get.

To answer your questions...

The Bessa *A will die when the batteries go flat, you may find the R3A too limiting with your glasses on. Otherwise I would assume them as better than the R2.
I have AE on my Mamiya 7 and you may get a bit lazier, but you do have to use it, you can switch to manual.
The Hexar RF is a better camera than the Bessas (the price new was twice as much, you get what you pay for).
For a newbie, if you think you are competent enough to judge a used camera, I would say that is way to go. A Leica will probably hold its value best, though be careful with old electronics, it can cost a bit to have it CLAd.

In any case, prices for second hand M bodies have never been lower, thanks to digital.
Click to expand...
Nope, I want TTL metering for sure, so it's gotta be a bit newer cameras for me.

And the Hexar on Blocket was sold weeks ago, the previous owner just let the ad be, because there were other items in it that were not sold yet. Also, a new Bessa R2A costs merely $600 (4000 SEK) from Gandy, so I wouldn't buy that in Sweden, where it is much more expensive, but rather order it from him. The tullkostnad is only 6% (250 SEK) and the moms doesn't matter, as I will be buying any camera through my company anyway.

How often would a M6TTL need service and how much will it cost me?

Regarding the lenses, I seem to be sold on Voigts primarily, but also Leicas (if I can afford them). But Voigts could be used on an M6TTL too, so that's OK.

What does CLA mean?
 
Welcome to the forum Karl & hth! 🙂 Karl, you're well on your way as obviously you've done your research. You need to hold and if possible use a Leica M6TTL - maybe you can rent one for a couple of days? The VF on the M6 is terrific, focusing is a dream... 🙂 Also the M6 is very flexible in terms of framelines, it has 28, 35, 50, 75, 90 & 135.

The Voightlander 35/1.7 is just a cracking lens and there may be one for sale here and I've seen them on eBay too. Our member Peter has taken a lot of good pictures with that lens - you should take a look at his gallery here. The CV 75 is also an outstanding lens, or you could pick up a Leica 90 - something small like the (thin) 90mm Tele-Elmarit. A 35/75 would make a great two lens kit, but check out the posts here and in the Leica forum on photo.net about the construction of that lens. I think there were some issues and I'm unclear about whether the issues were early or later in its manufacture.

Wiechel said:
How often would a M6TTL need service and how much will it cost me?
Click to expand...
It really depends on how much the cam gets used. I have an M6TTL made in 1998 and I will probably get it CLA'd somewhere between 2006-2008, so 8-10 years for my level of use (and abuse). 😉 YMMV.
 
Welcome, Karl. I just got an R2A. Really like the feel and weight. It is louder than Leica, but then I can load and reload film 4 times faster with Bessa😉
 
And I've seen prices range $150 - $350 depending on what needs to ber done. You'd probably be best to ask this question of someone who does the service locally or where you're most likely to be sending it.
 
bessa r*a new and hexar rf used are actually about the same price. a used r*a is even less, and they're showing up here and on photo.net already. i wouldn't worry about ae making you lazy. i'm pretty lazy doing manual exposure, it's not hard work or anything.

to cla an m6 costs ~$250-300. some people need one every couple of years, others 5-10-15...

if you want to go for wide angles, used bessas are your best, most economical choice. you'll know if it has quality control problems beforehand, too, as they've just started production. the hexar rf is more versatile. compared to the bessa, the hexar's ebl is long enough to focus 50 'luxes, and just barely long enough for 90 'crons. the vf/rf may also be darker, but it's bright enough to focus in dimly lit rooms. the backfocus problem seems overblown. it's most often a rangefinder alignment problem. see this thread on how to diy: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1937.html. pvdhaar's motivation was to adjust it for left eye users, which might be the source of many complaints. if your eye is not centered, the rangefinder image goes off a little vertically. you have to keep your eye centered on bessas, too, but i don't think it affects how the rf image lines up. if the backfocus on the hexar is off, all it needs is for shims in the lens mount to be removed. konica still services it. here's a good page on the rf: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html. the hexar rf may be a problem if you like to jab the shutter button. =( it's fine if you squeeze.

whether the r3a's 40mm framelines are difficult to see depends on how thick your glasses are. mine are average, and i can see the 40 fls as easily as i can see the 35 fls on the m2 (.72x), which is mostly but not completely. the 50 fls are easy to see.
 
Last edited:
peter_n said:
Welcome to the forum Karl & hth! 🙂 Karl, you're well on your way as obviously you've done your research. You need to hold and if possible use a Leica M6TTL - maybe you can rent one for a couple of days? The VF on the M6 is terrific, focusing is a dream... 🙂 Also the M6 is very flexible in terms of framelines, it has 28, 35, 50, 75, 90 & 135.

The Voightlander 35/1.7 is just a cracking lens and there may be one for sale here and I've seen them on eBay too. Our member Peter has taken a lot of good pictures with that lens - you should take a look at his gallery here. The CV 75 is also an outstanding lens, or you could pick up a Leica 90 - something small like the (thin) 90mm Tele-Elmarit. A 35/75 would make a great two lens kit, but check out the posts here and in the Leica forum on photo.net about the construction of that lens. I think there were some issues and I'm unclear about whether the issues were early or later in its manufacture.

It really depends on how much the cam gets used. I have an M6TTL made in 1998 and I will probably get it CLA'd somewhere between 2006-2008, so 8-10 years for my level of use (and abuse). 😉 YMMV.
Click to expand...
OK, thanks for the advice. I'll check that out regarding the Heliar (if that was the one you were referring to with the "issues"?)

About the Leica vs Voigt issue, I think I'll be better off starting with a Voigt, so I can invest in some nice glass instead. If I get really serious about thris Rangefinder business, I could always "upgrade" to a Leica later on and keep the lenses!
 
aizan said:
bessa r*a new and hexar rf used are actually about the same price. a used r*a is even less, and they're showing up here and on photo.net already. i wouldn't worry about ae making you lazy. i'm pretty lazy doing manual exposure, it's not hard work or anything.

to cla an m6 costs ~$250-300. some people need one every couple of years, others 5-10-15...

if you want to go for wide angles, used bessas are your best, most economical choice. you'll know if it has quality control problems beforehand, too, as they've just started production. the hexar rf is more versatile. compared to the bessa, the hexar's ebl is long enough to focus 50 'luxes, and just barely long enough for 90 'crons. the vf/rf may also be darker, but it's bright enough to focus in dimly lit rooms. the backfocus problem seems overblown. it's most often a rangefinder alignment problem. see this thread on how to diy: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1937.html. pvdhaar's motivation was to adjust it for left eye users, which might be the source of many complaints. if your eye is not centered, the rangefinder image goes off a little vertically. you have to keep your eye centered on bessas, too, but i don't think it affects how the rf image lines up. if the backfocus on the hexar is off, all it needs is for shims in the lens mount to be removed. konica still services it. here's a good page on the rf: http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html. the hexar rf may be a problem if you like to jab the shutter button. =( it's fine if you squeeze.

whether the r3a's 40mm framelines are difficult to see depends on how thick your glasses are. mine are average, and i can see the 40 fls as easily as i can see the 35 fls on the m2 (.72x), which is mostly but not completely. the 50 fls are easy to see.
Click to expand...
Thanks!

Regarding the prices I wouldn't completely agree with you, as most of the Hexars I've seen have been about twice as expensive as the Bessas...

And regarding the R3A's framelines - maybe I could see them, but also, my guess is that I will want to use something wider than 40 most of the time (like the Ultron 35) so I guerss I'll be better off with an R2 or an R2A.

Shame that I'll be missing out on the longert EBL and the 1x mag tho.
 
One last question to help me finally decide everything:

Do you guys reckon there are any advantages whatsoever with the R2 over the R2A, except maybe for the possibility too shoot without batteries?
 
Wiechel said:
Do you guys reckon there are any advantages whatsoever with the R2 over the R2A, except maybe for the possibility too shoot without batteries?
Click to expand...
I prefer mechanical shutters to electronic ones myself simply because they're less complex and, presumably, easier to repair. That's not a strong reason to prefer the R2 though.

The only thing that's been nagging at me a bit are the reports of less than stellar quality control with the first shipments of R3A's -- I don't know if this carries over to the R2A or not. The R2's are a known, solid, commodity ...

Gene
 
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