New (USED) Noctilux focus is way off with M8

[eleskin]

I am sure this issue is not new, and I am not the first. I just bought a mint Noct on Ebay for $4,500, later model with telescoping hood, and the focus is way off. It will not focus at infinity (seems as if the lens elements should be a little closer to the image plane for correct focus. This of course throws everything off both near and far, making this lens not useable with my M8. So what should I do? The seller said it was adjusted at Solms recently. Should I give DAG a call or Allendale NJ? Who has had a problem like this and what was the resolution. Yes, I know this is a touchy lens, and I have used it before when at the Photo Plus Expo with good results. How much is the average cost to adjust this thing for my M8?

 

[palec]

If the lens has been in Solms service, the seller should have an receipt. And AFAIK serviced items in Leica have 12 months warranty.

 

[urban_alchemist]

You may need to send your M8 with your Noctilux - that's what Solms suggested I do, and it's focused perfectly since...

 

[Roger Hicks]

Or of course you can follow the advice I got from a Zeiss lens designer.

(1) Learn where your lens focuses at full aperture

(2) After focusing, lean back (more rarely forwards) a few inches. You shouldn't be looking at more than 6 inches/15cm at full aperture and minimum focus distance. Anywhere else, it's likely to be less.

Cheap, quick and reliable. It upsets those who have a religious belief in precision, but this is from a Zeiss lens designer...

Tashi delek,

R.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

If the lens won't focus at infinity, it suggests that something in your system needs professional adjustment. If you get infinity focus (and make sure that your test object it is + 2 miles away - the moon works (try Sunny-16 for exposure)) from the rest of your lenses, then it sounds like there is a problem with the Noct. You can do some adjustment of the roller cam in your M8 for close focus with a small No. 2 allen wrench. Search RFF or the Leica User's Forum for specific instructions/pcitures. I find that when my M8 is well adjusted for close focus with the Noctilux that everything else falls into place. My most difficult lenses to focus close in are : 90AA, 75/1.4 and the Noctilux. I have, in the past when things were not well adjusted for one reason or another, used Roger's lean-in (or out) method. The great thing about digital is that you get instant feedback on that technique.

BTW are we talking a couple of millimeters at the near end or more?

Ben Marks

 

[jaapv]

1. Send the lens to DAG to get it within spec
2. If it still misfocusses have your body checked by DAG
3. If this fails send body and lens in to adjust together

 

[Keith]

I think it's a little tragic that you can't buy a $5000.00 lens for a $5000.00 camera, both based on the same system from the same manufacturer, and assume that it will be correct and that they'll both do what they were supposed to! 😕

 

[eleskin]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful comments. Well appreciated here.

Ben, when I set the lens at infinity, it is way off, as it is at all other distances. More than a few millimeters. If I focus on something closer, or at any distance other than infinity, I would have to rotate the focusing ring quite a bit to get focus. Lets say I focus my M8 to something that is 5 feet or so away. The shot is out of focus. I have to turn my focusing ring on the Noct past 10 feet to get it in the ballpark. This is at any distance.

Jappve, yeh, I may have to send it out, DAG, Leica Allendale NJ, Sherry Krautter, etc,,. Thing is I really need my camera and I am a pro, and I would rather send the lens out first to see what happens. I read horror stories of people being without cameras for months. I can spare a week or two (3 is stretching it), before I get nervous.

The seller contacted me saying he felt bad about this and contacted
Leica about the lens service that was done before it was sold to me. It may be that it was serviced for film and not the M8, hence my problems.
By the way, based on what I have said, what does Leica actually do to solve this problem? Is the focusing mount adjusted, the distance of the rear element to sensor plane, camera, or all of the above? All of my other lenses work fine (and I want to keep it that way, even if there is an adjustment of the Noctilux or my M8).

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Well, that's a lens that is out of spec in a major way. I'll assume that the camera works with other lenses. When my Noctilux was "out of spec" it was front focussing by a centimeter or so. When it is a matter of feet, and the camera is reasonably within spec, it means that the lens cam is hitting the RF's roller arm at completely the wrong point. I don't know if this is possible, but it sounds as if the focusing cam was installed incorrectly. Seems unlikely that Solms would not know how to reassemble their own lens. I don't know the details of your transaction, but I would think that it was the seller's obligation to make this right. DAG or Sherry Krauter would be my choice for this fix. Seller should pay, IMHO. Sounds like the lens would have to be taken apart and put back together correctly.

Ben Marks

 

[eleskin]

Cam is not in right postion

Cam is not in right postion

Ben,

I think you nailed it on the head.

The cam does not retract all the way when I focus, only 3/4 of the way. I am still puzzled as to why this lens is not sharp at infinity. The only logical thing here is when whoever put this thing together, the rear element must be in the wrong position (it should be a little closer to the film/sensor plane for a sharp photo.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Ben,

I think you nailed it on the head.

The cam does not retract all the way when I focus, only 3/4 of the way. I am still puzzled as to why this lens is not sharp at infinity. The only logical thing here is when whoever put this thing together, the rear element must be in the wrong position (it should be a little closer to the film/sensor plane for a sharp photo.

I think I can offer you a hypothesis. If the lens is not focusing at infinity and the camera is properly calibrated, it means that the lens helical does not allow the lens travel far enough "in" (that is, towards the camera) to hit infinity focus. Perhaps when the lens was reassembled, it was threaded incorrectly. Remember, moving the focal node away from the film plane causes a lens to focus closer. This is what an extension tube does on an SLR -- the other effect of using an extension tube is that you lose the ability to focus at infinity. The effect is intentional with an extension tube; in your case not so much. Compared to the price you paid for the lens, the cost of reassembly (if that is all that is wrong with the lens) should be pretty modest. Call Sherry Krauter (krauter@warwick.net, 845-496-8834) and she will quote you a price and turnaround time. I have no connection to her, other than as a satisfied customer. And seriously, this sounds like the Seller's problem. If it were me, I would at least ask that the cost of the repair be covered.

Ben Marks


Edit:
P.s. Eleskin: on re-reading your post above, I see that you understand the optics perfectly. Apologies for getting all pedantic about the cause.

 

[eleskin]

Ben,

You are absolutely right.

I thought about Sherry today while driving back from my daughters pre school and it brought a smile to my face. I first delt with her when I was attending grad school Pratt and I bought my first used M4-2. My professor was using the M5 and loved her work. I got to know her quite well, but over the past few years, I have not been in touch due to alot going on in my life. she is a nice lady, very honest, and tells it like it is. I am waiting for the seller to send me some paperwork he claims was for the repair done,. should be interesting to see what happens. Paypal is covering me just in case.

 

[jaapv]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful comments. Well appreciated here.

Ben, when I set the lens at infinity, it is way off, as it is at all other distances. More than a few millimeters. If I focus on something closer, or at any distance other than infinity, I would have to rotate the focusing ring quite a bit to get focus. Lets say I focus my M8 to something that is 5 feet or so away. The shot is out of focus. I have to turn my focusing ring on the Noct past 10 feet to get it in the ballpark. This is at any distance.

Jappve, yeh, I may have to send it out, DAG, Leica Allendale NJ, Sherry Krautter, etc,,. Thing is I really need my camera and I am a pro, and I would rather send the lens out first to see what happens. I read horror stories of people being without cameras for months. I can spare a week or two (3 is stretching it), before I get nervous.

The seller contacted me saying he felt bad about this and contacted
Leica about the lens service that was done before it was sold to me. It may be that it was serviced for film and not the M8, hence my problems.
By the way, based on what I have said, what does Leica actually do to solve this problem? Is the focusing mount adjusted, the distance of the rear element to sensor plane, camera, or all of the above? All of my other lenses work fine (and I want to keep it that way, even if there is an adjustment of the Noctilux or my M8).

Yep- that is what I mean, start by sending out just the lens. Chances are that will solve the problem.

 

[SteveRD1]

I bought a new in box Noct 2 years ago when they were $3k new. It was sharp as a pin head at F1 on my M8. AMAZING! BUT stupid me sold it and a year later bought another one used for $2k. That one performed like yours. It was so out of whack I had the seller refund me as it was not only OOF in all shots but the color and contrast was off too. I have never seen so many lens inconsistencies than with Leica.

Two months ago I got a brand new 50 Lux ASPH that was bad. Would back focus terribly. I then bought a 75 Summarit 3 weeks ago that also had a horrible back focus issue. Both were exchanged and the new ones are fine. I thought it was my body but it turned out to be two bad lenses in a row!

Hope you get it fixed.

 

[eleskin]

Focus is not good, but lens is SHARP!!!

Focus is not good, but lens is SHARP!!!

SteveRD!,

I will say one thing, my Noctilux is very sharp wide open. That is a very good sign. The only issue is the focus which can be adjusted. The seller is very concerned and wants me to call him. He says Leica was responsible for the work (???) on the lens. My feeling is he needs to give me the information on the service provided by Leica and I should contact them directly about the situation. Sherry Krauter is my first choice here, but if Leica serviced this thing, they should do something about it. I had my M8 in Allendale NJ a month ago to replace a defective LCD protector, and they did not charge me a cent even though my warranty expired 3 weeks before. They even cleaned my sensor for free. I praised them for the service, and I will mention this when I contact Leica (my extreme satisfaction as to how theey handled me in the past). I guess being a really nice guy first is best to get things done (I am a nice guy, foolish sometimes, but nice).

 

[maddoc]

I had a similar problem with my Noctilux AFTER being serviced by Leica Japan. First I had it sent to Leica Japan for fixing the front-part of the lens which had become wobbly (user-error, I have the version with detachable hood and used to much force to unmount the hood ...:bang🙂 After the lens came back everything was fine but slowly (within 4 month) focus went off at infinity and if I wanted to take a photo of an object 3m away, I had to set focus to 5m ... Also I was not able to get any sharp photo anymore when set the lens to infinity.

I sent the lens in for service for a second time to Leica Japan and got the information that one element in the front group had unscrewed itself and become loose ....😱 They fixed it for free and now the lens works perfect on all cameras.

The Noctilux 50/1.0 does NOT have to be calibrated to your camera, once the lens is calibrated to factory standards, it works well with every camera that is also calibrated to factory standards.

I have recently lend my lens to a friend who has a Hexar RF (and never used a Noctilux before) and he had no problem at all to get sharp photos at f/1.0 and close-distance.

My tip, sent it back to Leica for service.

 

[rodinal]

If the lens has been in Solms service, the seller should have an receipt. And AFAIK serviced items in Leica have 12 months warranty.

Last year I had my Nocti serviced at Solms (and visited the factory) and the warranty was just six months. And yes, the gave me a certificate describing the service and the warranty.

The problem was a sticky focusing ring and they did a decent job, it (still) works perfectly, but after a 600 Euro bill, they didn't care enough to use three identical screws to fix the ring.

 

[HenningW]

On my first M8 the lens backfocussed to the extent that I wasn't confident enough to use it much. When I got my second body, it focussed perfectly. Since I then had two bodies, i sent one (the first) off to Solms along with a number of lenses to be coded, including the Noctilux to be adjusted to the body. I now have two bodies that focus perfectly with the Noctilux (wide open) and the 75/1.4. I can count on my fast lenses to deliver on either body, so I'm happy! You can be too, if you get your body and Nocti to work together.

Henning

 

[eleskin]

Noctilux is under warrenty by Leica Seller tells me

Noctilux is under warrenty by Leica Seller tells me

The seller contacted me by email and said Leica serviced the Noctilux and Leica will repair it at their cost.

The seller feels bad about this and wants to correct the problem, even wanting me to call him. Sounds like an honest man.

At any rate, if Leica worked on this, how did it get so out of adjustment? Of course the M8 rangefinder is useless with the lens right now, but what I find interesting is the lens itself will not focus on anything past 15 feet away, that is anything more than 15 feet away is blurry as hell. It really seems the lens elements are out of position here. That is the only logical conclusion. By playing around, I did get some exposures to test sharpness, and indeed, this lens is sharp at f1.0, and the color is outstanding. So it looks like a keeper, just that Leica has to correct the focus issue.

 

[mountainrivera]

Make sure it's not your body. You could find yourself with weeks waiting for the lens only to mount it and still have an issue. Sending them both at the same time sucks but may be worth it. If not - hate to say it - but you may be in for a long protracted and frustrating journey so my advice is to try to minimize that at much as possible.