New ZI or used M6-TTL - Which would you buy?

Tom Diaz said:
.....Do you intend to use the camera for the next 10 to 20 years? I think Leica probably has the advantage. If you think cameras are more expendable and get replaced more often, the ZI might get the nod, especially if the price is greatly in its favor.

Tom,

All that you said is well-taken and I appreciate very much your thoughtful comments. As to the "excerpted" part above.

That is part of my dilemma.

The best way to answer this is that I still have and use (albeit only on occassion now) my Nikkormat FT-2 - my first 35mm camera purchased new back in 1980!

I have a pretty good feeling that I will still be shooting it long after I have "shelved" my D-70 as "woefully obsolete".

That said, since part of my "positioning" with a M-mount camera is to be prepared shoudl I want a Leica DM - I do intend that the film camera I choose be in it for the long run! :D

Maybe Joe can help out here since he has a ZI. Joe, is it a shooter that's good for 20 years or so?
 
Maybe Joe can help out here since he has a ZI. Joe, is it a shooter that's good for 20 years or so?

is the camera a 20 year shooter...or am i a 20 year shooter? ;)

honestly, i think it is.
but, i am careful with my gear and except for dropping the p i have never hurt a harmless camera.
i also think a simple solution is to have a back up like an m3 or cl. something mechanical and with the cl, something that has a meter.
all bases covered.
joe
 
George,

I have a M6 (not TTL, first year of production) and love it. It's paired with a M4P. I also have way too many new Bessas (2Ts, 3Ls and my son has an R). I've just gone back to the light side (have an S2, looking for an SP).

I would say skip the ZI and the M6 and go with a Bessa R3A and spend the left over on glass. Get a 40/1.4 and a 25/4 (while you can). If you want to use 85/2 or 105/2.5, skip the R3A and go with a lower cost T. You can focus every Nikkor LTM made and use the money you save to fund a good zoom finder (nikon of course).

The T and the R3A support the lower cost winder, not as smooth as a rapidwinder but a lot of fun and very low cost.

You have plenty of film bodies, going M to get ready for Digital is not a bad idea. Buy glass, not bodies.

B2 (;->
 
RObert Budding said:
You seem to have some misperceptions:

1. And your point is?

2. The Contax G2 was manufactured by Kyocera. Kyocera no longer manufactures cameras.

3. The ZI is not a Bessa R3A any more than a Nikon F100 is a Nikon N80.

4. I think the battery issue is silly. Batteries are small and light - it's easy to carry a spare. And electronic shutters are more accurate than mechanical shutters.

5. Most people have no issues whatsoever with the latch on the ZI. Are you catching the latch on your spiked jacket or something?

6. ZI shutter noise? Sheesh! All shutters make noise. My Bronica RF645 is probably quieter than a Leica. So what? The Leica is quiet enough (as is the ZI).


7. I bought neither. I like medium and large format negatives.

Enjoy your Leica (or ZI).

OK!

so,

1. Leica=experience=quality=history=reliability!!!

2. I expect ergonomic problems with ZI because it was mainly designed in JAPAN by COSINA. G2 was designed by Kyocera which is in Japan as well. These SECOND CLASS companies are not experienced enough to produce 1500USD cameras!!!

3.Really? Maybe they look different but mechanicaly they are 80% identical!

4.I'm quite satisfied with Ms shutter accuracy! All slides are well exposed.

5.one word ---->> ACCIDENT! I can throw my leica from 2 meters height and my film will be safe.

6.Yea BESSA-R is pretty quiet too. But when I use it people stare at me. I'm invisible with my LEICA M6
 
statements of leica's proven reliability are a bit misleading. hard, professional use has proven that its shutter is not as reliable as copal shutters and their clones. they also require yearly tune ups to maintain accuracy to within 1/3 stop, which is important with chromes, and is never as good as an electric copal. also, a fleck of film or grain of sand can easily jam the shutter and transport system in the field. what leicas are is durable. so, you end up with a camera that lasts longer, but needs more maintenance.
 
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Bertram2 said:
There are some good arguments for a M6TTL too, depending on the personal preferences tho.

None of them is in this list of Kinderkacke above, based all on hearsay. Enjoy your Leica, but if people ask for advice here , please don't talk about stuff you obviously have no clue off.

Bertram


that's my choice! I cannot see any drawbacks in my M6... Kinderkache!
 
back alley said:
I'm invisible with my LEICA M6


i like that one the best!

Of course I understand that ASPALT, TREES, FLOWERS (and especially your friends) and etc don't afraid of you and your LOVER ZI... Enjoy it
 
I've actually fondled both the ZI and an M6. For that kind of investment I'd have to go with the Leica. IT"S A LEICA for god's sake. A Cobra might go as fast as a Ferari, but it's a Ferari. (I'm not going to open the BMW / Harley Davidson can of worms...)

If I could justify one, I'd buy an M6. I'd also buy a Ferari if I could afford one. Truth be told, I'm wedded to my (gasp) OM system gear. Period. The Rf collection is rather more like a mistress (several actualy...well more like a red neck cat house...) Great sex, but not a good cook or the mother of my children. Boorish analogy, but it makes my point. We're in the region of emotional decision.
 
ARS said:
OK!

so,

1. Leica=experience=quality=history=reliability!!!

2. I expect ergonomic problems with ZI because it was mainly designed in JAPAN by COSINA. G2 was designed by Kyocera which is in Japan as well. These SECOND CLASS companies are not experienced enough to produce 1500USD cameras!!!

3.Really? Maybe they look different but mechanicaly they are 80% identical!

4.I'm quite satisfied with Ms shutter accuracy! All slides are well exposed.

5.one word ---->> ACCIDENT! I can throw my leica from 2 meters height and my film will be safe.

6.Yea BESSA-R is pretty quiet too. But when I use it people stare at me. I'm invisible with my LEICA M6

ARS,

I'm betting that you are a really nice guy with a passion for your chosen gear.

I also notice that you have about 7 posts here.

So I am guessing that you do not know about the near death match threads that went on here back in November of last year through around February.

Suffice to say, it was Zeiss vs. Leica on bodies and ZF vs Nikkor lenses etc. It was damned ugly and it is why in my post today I asked people to keep it "civil".

And most folks are doing so.

I accept your "passion" for Leica and am glad you are pleased with your "kit".

However, there are other points of view. I myself own two Cosina/Bessa etc. camera bodies (R2S) and several S-mount pieces of CV glass.

If I were king of the world, I would take over Nikon and make them produce a digital S-mount RF (the SPD! ;) ) and know that I could continue to enjoy my S-mount glass in a digiRF.

But, alas, I am NOT king of the world - at least not yet.

You have every right to tout the Leica gear - it is probably the single most used gear here and needs no one to "defend" it.

But please lay off bad mouthing the Cosina gear because I have some already and think they have identified very viable price points for various levels of quality.
 
i have a feeling that most people here consider rangefinder cameras to be their, uh, wives...not just a fling on the side.
 
Designed in Germany by Zeiss, built by Cosina. Do your homework. And unless you've worked executive level in small-batch manufacturing, like I have, please try to base the remainder of your comments on fact and accute personal physical observation. And since you swear Leica, whom I greatly respect as one of the pioneers of portable photography, dont forget who originally engineered ASPH lens design. As a hint, that company built the first lenses to go to the moon with NASA.

-grant
 
ARS said:
OK!

so,

1. Leica=experience=quality=history=reliability!!!

2. I expect ergonomic problems with ZI because it was mainly designed in JAPAN by COSINA. G2 was designed by Kyocera which is in Japan as well. These SECOND CLASS companies are not experienced enough to produce 1500USD cameras!!!

3.Really? Maybe they look different but mechanicaly they are 80% identical!

4.I'm quite satisfied with Ms shutter accuracy! All slides are well exposed.

5.one word ---->> ACCIDENT! I can throw my leica from 2 meters height and my film will be safe.

6.Yea BESSA-R is pretty quiet too. But when I use it people stare at me. I'm invisible with my LEICA M6

1. So what has Leica done with all of that experience & history? Basically they have been making the same camera since 1953 with a few tweaks. They tried to use their experience to improve the camera when they introduced the M5, but the public wasn't buying, so you're not buying a camera based on oodles of experience. You're buying the same basic design that they came up with over 50 years ago.

Oh, they did change a few things. They cheapened the rangefinder when they went from the M3 to the M2 & have been trying to figure out how to control flare with the newer RF design ever since. This has been a problem with the M6 in particular. Erwin Puts has pointed out that the ZI rangefinder is very similar to the superior design of that on the M3. Nor did their experience prevent them from producing an M7 with numerous complaints about poor seals around the eyepiece that resulted in dust in the viewfinder.

2. What you expect in terms or problems with ergonomics has nothing to do with reality. It has to do totally with what's in your mind. There are plenty of actual users of Zeiss Ikons on this forum & the reality is that they love its ergonomics. On what do you base your comment that the ZI "was mainly designed in Japan"?

3. What mechanics in the ZI & the R2A are "80% identical"? The rangefinders on the 2 cameras are different. The viewfinders are different. The shutters are electronic, not mechanical, and the electronic controls of the two shutters are different. Let's look at what makes a difference in taking pictures. The ZI is the only camera that can match a Leica M in immediacy of response. Shutter lag is 14 ms in manual & 20 ms in AE. By comparison the M6 is 12 ms & the M7 is 25 ms. A Bessa camera is about 100 ms. If you're interested in capturing the "decisive moment", this kind of performance will make a difference in the pictures you take. The ZI is a big upgrade over the R2A.

4. The fact that you are satisfied with your shutter accuracy doesn't change the fact that the battery issue is silly, nor does it change the fact that electronic shutters are more accurate.

5. The latch on the ZI is not flimsy. It is a proven design feature that has been around for 20 years on Rollei cameras such as the SL66, the 2000, & the 3003. Anyone's film will be safe in a ZI; it's quite sturdy. Regardless, please don't throw your Leica or any other camera from 2 meters height.

6. A Leica M is relatively quiet, but it certainly doesn't make you invisible. And unless you're a spy, what difference does it make? Rather than sneaking up on people, engage them a little & it won't even be an issue. At speeds below 1/30, the Leica actually becomes noisier than the ZI due to the excapement that controls the timing. There are cameras today that are virtually silent, but the M6 isn't one of them. This shutter noise thing is greatly overrated in my opinion.

The M6 is a great camera. Comparison with the ZI really comes down to whether someone wants a mechanical, all-manual camera or an electronic camera with AE. There is also the issue of whether one prefers to buy new or used. There are other differences between the two, but none of them will prevent a user from taking great pictures with either one. Or lousy ones depending on skill level. ;)
 
ARS said:
1. Leica=experience=quality=history=reliability!!!

The ='s don't add up.


2. I expect ergonomic problems with ZI because it was mainly designed in JAPAN by COSINA. G2 was designed by Kyocera which is in Japan as well. These SECOND CLASS companies are not experienced enough to produce 1500USD cameras!!!

Canon and Nikon are also Japanese. Must be 2nd class as well.


3.Really? Maybe they look different but mechanicaly they are 80% identical!

Chimpansees are 98% like us. Yet, no-one would say they're the same. VW and Seat are also 80%+ the same, yet I don't see a VW owner say he's driving a Seat.


5.one word ---->> ACCIDENT! I can throw my leica from 2 meters height and my film will be safe.

Get yourself a Luigi case and strap.


6.Yea BESSA-R is pretty quiet too. But when I use it people stare at me. I'm invisible with my LEICA M6

My M2 never made me invisible. With my Bessa R, though, I can shoot whatever I like. Invisibility is an attitude. Your M is not a cloaking device.
 
Cobra, or Ferrari...? Ferrari is style but Cobra is brute force. I guess I'd opt for the Cobra, the original one. :p
 
tkluck said:
I've actually fondled both the ZI and an M6. For that kind of investment I'd have to go with the Leica. IT"S A LEICA for god's sake. A Cobra might go as fast as a Ferari, but it's a Ferari. (I'm not going to open the BMW / Harley Davidson can of worms...)

If I could justify one, I'd buy an M6. I'd also buy a Ferari if I could afford one. Truth be told, I'm wedded to my (gasp) OM system gear. Period. The Rf collection is rather more like a mistress (several actualy...well more like a red neck cat house...) Great sex, but not a good cook or the mother of my children. Boorish analogy, but it makes my point. We're in the region of emotional decision.

The last time I saw a Ferrari 456GT, my friend was with me and I told him, we just save ourself $2m HKD for walking and not owning a 456 for the last 8 years.

They cost $2.6m HKD new back in 1997, now you can pick one up for $600k HKD.

Huck Finn said:
1. So what has Leica done with all of that experience & history? Basically they have been making the same camera since 1953 with a few tweaks. They tried to use their experience to improve the camera when they introduced the M5, but the public wasn't buying, so you're not buying a camera based on oodles of experience. You're buying the same basic design that they came up with over 50 years ago.

Oh, they did change a few things. They cheapened the rangefinder when they went from the M3 to the M2 & have been trying to figure out how to control flare with the newer RF design ever since. This has been a problem with the M6 in particular. Erwin Puts has pointed out that the ZI rangefinder is very similar to the superior design of that on the M3. Nor did their experience prevent them from producing an M7 with numerous complaints about poor seals around the eyepiece that resulted in dust in the viewfinder.

3. What mechanics in the ZI & the R2A are "80% identical"? The rangefinders on the 2 cameras are different. The viewfinders are different. The shutters are electronic, not mechanical, and the electronic controls of the two shutters are different. Let's look at what makes a difference in taking pictures. The ZI is the only camera that can match a Leica M in immediacy of response. Shutter lag is 14 ms in manual & 20 ms in AE. By comparison the M6 is 12 ms & the M7 is 25 ms. A Bessa camera is about 100 ms. If you're interested in capturing the "decisive moment", this kind of performance will make a difference in the pictures you take. The ZI is a big upgrade over the R2A.

Huck,

1. Sounds interesting, would like to know more, please tell us more regarding the ZI's RF (charts?).

3. AE or no AE is not important to me, I use manual setting only but will the electronic shutter last as good as the M6's manual shutter?
 
ARS said:
OK!

so,

1. Leica=experience=quality=history=reliability!!!

2. I expect ergonomic problems with ZI because it was mainly designed in JAPAN by COSINA. G2 was designed by Kyocera which is in Japan as well. These SECOND CLASS companies are not experienced enough to produce 1500USD cameras!!!

3.Really? Maybe they look different but mechanicaly they are 80% identical!

4.I'm quite satisfied with Ms shutter accuracy! All slides are well exposed.

5.one word ---->> ACCIDENT! I can throw my leica from 2 meters height and my film will be safe.

6.Yea BESSA-R is pretty quiet too. But when I use it people stare at me. I'm invisible with my LEICA M6
And this is the point in which passion over something leads to false statements about that thing in an effort to "prove" that things "superiority" and perhaps justify your monetary investment in that thing or at least your perceived "face value" in owning that thing.

Unfortunately for you, this is a forum made up of rangefinder enthusiasts, many of which actually know about the kit they use and will take you to task on any false statements that you make in your rush to defend an illogical passion over an object.

Like...

ZI designs come from ZI. QA for the Zeiss Ikon is imported, too. That is where much of the cost comes from.

Next time you get down to the photo shop, take a look through the viewfinder...when your fellow Leicaphiles aren't looking of course. Do a side-by-side with the M6. I have, and have found the ZI viewfinder a more comfortable experience. Maybe it's because I wear glasses?

On shutter construction, besides the benefit of more speed, copal shutters are more durable then cloth. Cloth may be quieter, but I like to take lost of pics so I'll go with copal. Besides, if you're taking pics you still have to hold the camera in your hand regardless of how quiet the shutter is. If you need *that* level of silence, don't you think that someone will notice you walking around a long time before you take a picture? I take shots with my R2 and R2a in local temples all the time. If it's quiet enough for that, what more is needed?
 
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The finder is simply amazing on the ZI. I don't own an M6, but I own an M2 and it simply gathers dust since I picked up the ZI. The handling, the feel, the ergonomics, the finder... its a great camera. You can't go wrong with either, however.

For those talking about the resale value, I buy my cameras to use, not as an investment. Just my $0.02...
 
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