back alley
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i think the latch complaint is actually kinda funny.
i'm a bit of a klutz and i find the latch needs to be looked at to open it. i still don't have that 'slide it to the side and then down' thing yet.
for it to open on it's own is just a joke, never gonna happen.
i'm a bit of a klutz and i find the latch needs to be looked at to open it. i still don't have that 'slide it to the side and then down' thing yet.
for it to open on it's own is just a joke, never gonna happen.
grantray
Established
ywenz said:
You're STILL off. Porsche outsources, ala Zeiss, far more of their production components, (which is very smart business), than GM does with the Corvette. Which is another reason why poor Lutz is swimming in the red while Porsche are laughing to the bank.
If Zeiss produced the ZI and all lenses "in house" the system would cost every bit as much as a Leica. I'm afraid your analogy is the RF equivalent of Chevy vs. Ford.
Will
Well-known
Huck Finn said:
Dear Huck,
Thanks a lot for the info. The ZI just became more interesting to me.
I always consider a M3 or M6 0.85 for my next body (when $ allow) due to their long effective base lenght (got some GAS on a IIIG resently, but it's gone.
), M6 0.85 is expensive, but M3 are plentiful in Hong Kong.A M3 vs ZI comparsion is just as unfair as a M6 vs ZI comparsion, but at the end, I would say a M3, for me. I don't need a new camera or AE, but I need a very good, used camera with long EBL. Then again, both of them don't have the 75mm frame line for the 75mm lux (again, I would buy used) and worst, I am broke
Anyway, thanks a lot for the info on the rangefinder, here is the information on the Kiev & Contax RF that I hope you find it interesting:
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/rangefinder operation.html
Will
ywenz
Veteran
grantray said:
Guy, your knowledge of the auto industry is impressive(however incorrect your summarization of GM's problems may be, but let's not go off on a tangent here eh?), However I'm saying that the ZI is a very capable camera, right up there with the M6, but it lacks the "romance" that comes with the Leica brand. Just like the Z06 vs 911 turbo.
back alley
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lacks romance?
just what kind of a relationship with your camera are we talking about here?
just what kind of a relationship with your camera are we talking about here?
ywenz
Veteran
back alley said:lacks romance?
just what kind of a relationship with your camera are we talking about here?
The one of the camera kind.
Will
Well-known
willie_901 said:
Currently the ZI's main rival is the used M6. It's a bit sad in some way, but if it is what they need to get in and stay in the market, then why not?
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Brian: Get yourself some SL66 gear, preferrably with at least the Sonnar 150. We'll see you less frequently around here, but your wife will be humming all day.
BTW, does she have a sister?
BTW, does she have a sister?
amateriat
We're all light!
Ugly? Ouch, that's a bit harsh, methinks. I think the ZI is quite handsome, for what that's worth.ywenz said:
Of course, there's a bit of a bias here: the square-shouldered contours of the ZI are quite similar to my beloved Konica Hexars, which is yet another reason why I've taken a more than casual interest in this Ikon, since I've been thinking off-and-on about a non-motorized third body to use alongside my HRFs. Besides the body shape, the ZI has a somewhat-similar control layout, swing-open back, vertical-traveling shutter (with higher flash-sync speed), and AE operration, to the HRF. I can easily live without 135mm framelines, and while I have a wee bit of concern about using my 90 M-Hex with the ZI's 85mm framelines, I think (hope!) I can cope. I would hope the shutter noise isn't significantly louder than your garden-variety Leica M, so I'll have to compare side-by-side on that issue (too high a pitch would be a deal-breaker).
Emotional attachment? Well, that counts for something, but it can be subjective: I love the feel of a Leica M, but I've "bonded" with my HRFs as well, and don't doubt that I'd feel pretty much the same about the ZI. But this comes with time – the rest is just the first blush of infatuation.
- Barrett
Huck Finn
Well-known
amateriat said:
Barrett,
You should have no trouble using the 85 frame lines with your 90 Hexanon-M. As part of their review of the Zeiss Ikon in the April issue of Shutterbug, Roger Hicks & Frances Schultz did a comparison of frame lines. They found the ZI 85 to be identical in size to the 90 frame lines of the Leica MP and that the M2 & the Bessa R2 both have wider 90 frame lines than the ZI 85!
In regard to the noise issue, some folks have found that the sound can be muffled with use of a Luigi case or a cheaper substitute case.
Huck
RObert Budding
D'oh!
back alley said:
Must be the built-in Leica cloaking device.
cfoto
Established
Interesting and very informative discussion. I too was contemplating between a used M6 and a new non-Leica rangefinder. For me, at the time, it was a decision between the M6, the Bessa R2A, the Z1 and the Rollei RF.
The R2A and Z1 dropped off pretty quickly due to the fact that they are battery dependent. That was a big one for me. I’ve been there in the past, where I picked up my camera for a “decisive moment” to find the battery was dead. Even if you have a spare taped directly to the camera, by the time you take the old one out and put the new one it, the “moment” is gone. I wanted, needed, a camera that would still shoot if the battery was dead or weak.
Thus, it came down to the M6 and Rollei. Just entering the rangefinder world, I did what research I could (with some research done at this forum and the helpful comments by the members here) and was vexed. It finally came down to price. While I didn’t (and still don’t) have experience on rangefinders, I do know a little about lenses and I liked what I heard and read about the Rollei Sonar lenses. I could get the Rollei kit, body and the Sonnar 2.8 lens for $999. With more digging, I may have been able to find the M6 with a compatible lens for around the same, but I was having no luck. So, I chose new over used. So far, I have been very happy with the camera and lens. And, if I am pulled into the rangefinder world as many have been, I may look at a Leica down the road, simply to say that I own a Leica. Until then, the “box” I purchased gives me the results I want.
Good luck with your decision and purchase!
The R2A and Z1 dropped off pretty quickly due to the fact that they are battery dependent. That was a big one for me. I’ve been there in the past, where I picked up my camera for a “decisive moment” to find the battery was dead. Even if you have a spare taped directly to the camera, by the time you take the old one out and put the new one it, the “moment” is gone. I wanted, needed, a camera that would still shoot if the battery was dead or weak.
Thus, it came down to the M6 and Rollei. Just entering the rangefinder world, I did what research I could (with some research done at this forum and the helpful comments by the members here) and was vexed. It finally came down to price. While I didn’t (and still don’t) have experience on rangefinders, I do know a little about lenses and I liked what I heard and read about the Rollei Sonar lenses. I could get the Rollei kit, body and the Sonnar 2.8 lens for $999. With more digging, I may have been able to find the M6 with a compatible lens for around the same, but I was having no luck. So, I chose new over used. So far, I have been very happy with the camera and lens. And, if I am pulled into the rangefinder world as many have been, I may look at a Leica down the road, simply to say that I own a Leica. Until then, the “box” I purchased gives me the results I want.
Good luck with your decision and purchase!
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amateriat
We're all light!
Make that three of us – give me an early enough heads-up and I can hop on the bike or F train from Brooklyn and meet y'all (and I'll finally have some motivation to visit PV...haven't gotten there yet, amazingly).copake_ham said:
- Barrett
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
ghost said:
Not in my experience. I currently own M2, M3 (2), M6, M6TTL and M7 (sold an M-4P). Only the M7 was bought new. So these are some seriously old cameras. I have owned the M6 since 1994 and had it cla'd once when the meter died. I have had the M3s CLA'd once since 1992 and the M2 CLA'd plus shutter brake adjusted once. CLA your M annually if you want to. IMHO it's a waste of money.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I agree 100% My experience as well. I had my M3 CLA'd , probably after 25 years since the last time, and the times turned out to be within 1/2 a stop. The whole shutter accuracy "issue" is moot anyway, I have never heard of any complaints about te Leica's being "less accurate" than the ZI or cloth shutters being worse than metal ones. The variation in film, development and even temperature when exposing easily absorb these perceived differences which can only be shown under laboratory conditions anyway, as will the light loss in the various lenses (the f-stops are mathematical values and don't take the transmission loss into account, except with TTL measuring of course) Just to ban another myth that has not turned up in this thread yet: Cloth burns slower than thin titanium when exposed to longer periods of concentrated sunlight; there is no advantage in having a metal shutter when you leave your camera in the direct sun in such a way as to burn little holes in your shutter. As for the number of exposures, both Leica and ZI shutters will easily withstand over 100.000 actuations.Benjamin Marks said:
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BrianShaw
Well-known
Trius said:
Yup... Sonnar 150 gets her going, even on a Hassy... but you should see her when it has the lens hood attached. OUT OF CONTROL!
Sorry, but she's one of a kind... and she's mine!
amateriat
We're all light!
So you had to drag Enzo and Carroll into this. You're in trouble, lad (though I prefer John Cooper's work to either, so there).tkluck said:
Er...forget about Enzo and Carroll...!
- Barrett (who was going to quote an Ian Tyson song, but thought better)
willie_901
Veteran
cfoto said:
This is an excellent point.
I've decided to automatically send myself an email every four months to replace the batteries in all my cameras. That way I'll greatly reduce the likelihood that one of them suffers sudden battery loss. The used batteries will become emergency spares.
willie
jano
Evil Bokeh
I must be the only one who's never had a problem with a dead battery in a camera. Cell phone, yes, but not camera, not even digital -- the only thing that's made me miss the "decisive moment" was either not having the camera on hand, or taking the time to enjoy the moment without taking a picture (not every decisive moment has to be photographed, I know I speak blasphemy!). *shrug*
Barrett: I have the ZI, and I don't think it's a very pretty camera at all. But I do enjoy using that nimble machine, and the case hides it a bit
Huck: I haven't notice a difference in ZI's loudness of shutter sound with vs without the luigi case. Maybe I'll give it a shot just for laughs, but only after I burn through the current roll that's in it.
hasta la pasta,
Jano
Barrett: I have the ZI, and I don't think it's a very pretty camera at all. But I do enjoy using that nimble machine, and the case hides it a bit
Huck: I haven't notice a difference in ZI's loudness of shutter sound with vs without the luigi case. Maybe I'll give it a shot just for laughs, but only after I burn through the current roll that's in it.
hasta la pasta,
Jano
R
RML
Guest
Ugly or not, it does remind me a lot of the Contaxes and Kievs.
Battery dependency... hogwash. We have more battery dependent gadgets on our body than we care to remember. Do they fail when we need them the most? Only when you're ignorant of the fact the batteries need recharging/replacing now and then. Same with cameras. In all my years of using battery dependent cameras I've had not once had a problem. You notice the battery go empty long before it really stop functioning. And the indicator on my R-D1 works flawlessly. It shows up, I replace the battery with a fresh one. As soon as I get home, the empty battery goes into the charger. Next morning, I take it out and put it back in my pocket/bag. Missing a decisive moment? I miss more while I sleep. I can't be bothered by it. You miss them when you have to slam in a new film, don't you? And you do that more often than replacing a battery, don't you?
Battery dependency... hogwash. We have more battery dependent gadgets on our body than we care to remember. Do they fail when we need them the most? Only when you're ignorant of the fact the batteries need recharging/replacing now and then. Same with cameras. In all my years of using battery dependent cameras I've had not once had a problem. You notice the battery go empty long before it really stop functioning. And the indicator on my R-D1 works flawlessly. It shows up, I replace the battery with a fresh one. As soon as I get home, the empty battery goes into the charger. Next morning, I take it out and put it back in my pocket/bag. Missing a decisive moment? I miss more while I sleep. I can't be bothered by it. You miss them when you have to slam in a new film, don't you? And you do that more often than replacing a battery, don't you?