News on the Fuji GF670 - very upsetting

kuzano said:
But part of me thinks that if Fuji was after a serious money collector market, Cosina would not have been included in the mix. I really think they intended to sell quite a few of these.
Click to expand...

Splitting one model in two versions is another method to attract collector's money. Cameraquest already delivered the arguments to defend a high price, "niche demand" was mentioned. If the price is set high enough it will certainly create niche demand.

I also question where this folder was conceived, it has Mr. Kobayashi's signature all over and Fuji may well have been approached by Cosina to give it the label that film isn't dead. If Fuji had the guts they should have sponsered this project, it looks more they are in it halfhearted.


Ernst Dinkla
 
i still don't get why people think this will be any more "limited" or "collectible" than the zeiss ikon.
 
Folks,

Eventually the new folder might be a collector's item, but I can assure you it is not intended to be one from the get go. It is designed to be a shooter, not a collectible.

However it remains to be see what the marketplace demand will be once the camera is available. Low marketplace demand could translate to low production, and that in turn could create a collectible.

Stephen
 
It just seems to me that if CV set out to make a shooters camera, rather than a nostalgic collectible, the designers wouldn't have been channeling dead designers from the early 20th century and come up with a folding MF with a more modern design. The look, feel, bellows and knob wind make it pretty clear to me the market they are aiming at.
 
Fred Burton said:
The look, feel, bellows and knob wind make it pretty clear to me the market they are aiming at.
Click to expand...

I don't know why everybody is just focusing on this winding knob. Would a lever be that much quicker than a knob? And why the need for quick winding with a folding camera, which is obviously not designed for quick action shooting? As it has already been stated here, the mechanism associated with the lever would make the camera less reliable, much noisier (ratchet), more expensive and bulky. A protruding lever would also make the camera less pocketable, negating the main advantage of the folding camera concept.

As for the bellows, it seems to me that it would be difficult to build a folder without this piece of equipment :D.

Cheers!

Abbazz
 
It looks like a major improvement over the classic folders. It should be more rigid, have better film flatness, a sharper lens corner to corner, and looks like it has better ergonomics and a modern viewfinder. The concept of a folder may be kind of retro, but this isn't a retro folder.

Ratcheting wind levers are great, but they are the bane of medium format cameras in this form factor. They are notoriously problematic on the Mamiya 6 and Pentacon. I guess Mamiya has worked it out on the 7 and Pentax on the 67, but these are much chunkier cameras, and on modular SLRs (Hassy, Bronica, etc.), the mechanism is much larger.
 
Abbazz said:
I don't know why everybody is just focusing on this winding knob. Would a lever be that much quicker than a knob? And why the need for quick winding with a folding camera, which is obviously not designed for quick action shooting? As it has already been stated here, the mechanism associated with the lever would make the camera less reliable, much noisier (ratchet), more expensive and bulky. A protruding lever would also make the camera less pocketable, negating the main advantage of the folding camera concept.
Click to expand...

Rubbish!

Answers:

1. Quicker and more convenient

2. Why would a lever mechanism be more unreliable than other mechanical part of the camera? You don't hear people complaining that they wish their 35mm cameras had rewind knobs like in the old days because they were so much more reliable! <rolls eyes>

Anyway, presumably it has a modern film-advance mechanism, since it uses 220 film, so 99% of the needed mechanism is already present.

3. My Certo Six has an advance lever but no noisy ratchet

4. Expense - again, I don't think so. The difference in design and manufacturing costs between a knob and lever mechanism would be negligible.

5. Bulky - once again, not necessarily - look at my Cero Six's lever, below. Hardly bulky!

I think the knob is a poor choice, and a case of nostalgic design over function. One reason I chose my Cero Six when looking for a compact 6x6 camera was because it had a convenient lever-operated film-advance mechanism.

The bellows I can understand - makes the camera more compact.

I'm not a fan of nostalgia. A tool should always be designed with function over form (by all means design it well - no need for ugliness!). To my eyes, the GF670 is more of a design exercise than a photographer's tool.

I'm a recent convert to 6x6, having cut my photographic teeth on modern digital cameras. Ideally, I would have liked a modern Mamiya 6 but couldn't afford it, plus it's still a bit bulky. So, I had to buy an old folding camera - choosing one was a nightmare as I had to wade through nostalgia and posts written by people wearing rose-tinted spectacles, resulting in me buying cameras that did not meet my expectations.

For example, I bought an Iskra. This is a total pile of **** as an efficient photographic tool. How can folk can wax lyrical such a crudely built camera!? See http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61709

Then I bought a Certo Six. It had some serious faults but now that I've attacked this "classic" with files, a hacksaw and my drill, it's much more user-friendly to use - if uglier! (I have a friend who keeps whining about how I've destroyed it - it's a tool not a piece of art!) See http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65609

Anyway, my point is, it seems that some manual modern cameras suffer from poor design by harking back to the past too much. The GF645 does too - I would be more interested if it took the best features of traditional medium-format folding cameras and married them to modern technology, and ignored retro styling. Perhaps I think this way because my first camera was Canon 10D digital SLR....

By the way, my main camera is the Leica M8, and this suffers from retro design too - it would be a far better camera if they'd followed the Epson R-D1 (my previous camera) design, with external controls for ISO, etc., and left nostalgia behind (that pointless, ridiculous base plate! <rolls eyes again>).
 

Attachments

  • Certo Six (1958-59) A 05.jpg
    Certo Six (1958-59) A 05.jpg
    16.6 KB · Views: 0
RichC said:
1. Quicker and more convenient
Click to expand...
If you need a quick and convenient MF camera, buy a motorized SLR. A folder is not meant for action shooting.

RichC said:
2. Why would a lever mechanism be more unreliable than other mechanical part of the camera? You don't hear people complaining that they wish their 35mm cameras had rewind knobs like in the old days because they were so much more reliable! <rolls eyes>

Anyway, presumably it has a modern film-advance mechanism, since it uses 220 film, so 99% of the needed mechanism is already present.
Click to expand...

As stated by David, the wind lever is a major source of problems with many MF cameras. A reliable winding mechanism requires an oversized gear train, because of the force needed to wind one full frame of 120 film. In order not to put too much strain on the gear train, many MF cameras (like the Certo Six so dear to your heart for instance) require two strokes of the wind lever to advance the film, thus negating the speed advantage of the lever.

As for the new Fuji/Voigtländer using 220 film, that means only that there is an automatic film stop (a roller and a frame counter), not that there is a ratcheted advance mechanism.

RichC said:
3. My Certo Six has an advance lever but no noisy ratchet
Click to expand...

I don't have a Certo Six but I doubt there is no ratchet in the film advance mechanism.

RichC said:
4. Expense - again, I don't think so. The difference in design and manufacturing costs between a knob and lever mechanism would be negligible.
Click to expand...

Every single part adds to the cost of a camera. It's even more true for the new Fuji/Voigtländer, because it's a one of a kind camera, so no economy of scale can be made by reemploying parts from other models.

RichC said:
5. Bulky - once again, not necessarily - look at my Cero Six's lever, below. Hardly bulky!

I think the knob is a poor choice, and a case of nostalgic design over function. One reason I chose my Cero Six when looking for a compact 6x6 camera was because it had a convenient lever-operated film-advance mechanism.
Click to expand...

As stated above, the Certo Six requires two strokes of the lever to advance film. The shutter also has to be manually cocked after advancing the film. I would hardly say this is a convenient and speedy process!

RichC said:
Anyway, my point is, it seems that some manual modern cameras suffer from poor design by harking back to the past too much. The GF645 does too - I would be more interested if it took the best features of traditional medium-format folding cameras and married them to modern technology, and ignored retro styling. Perhaps I think this way because my first camera was Canon 10D digital SLR....
Click to expand...

If you are refering to the Fuji GS645, it can hardly be described as a camera with a "design harking back to the past too much," knowing that many reviewers criticized its rather futuristic design and the use of synthetic materials.

Cheers!

Abbazz
 
FUJI / Voigtlander RANGFINDER 2009

FUJI / Voigtlander RANGFINDER 2009

O.K for those off you who may or may not know, Fuji earlier this year unveiled a 120 Medium format rangefinder. This was a huge surprise and gained allot of attention . Well it is official and Voigtlander have announced the BESSA 3 on the following website.

www.voigtlaender.com/

BOTH the FUJI & VOIGTLADER will be releasing the same model (produced by Cosina). The first release scheduled by Voigtlader as the "Bessa 3" in BLACK is around April 2009. Followed mid year by Fuji, a silver Fuji 6x7variety(Japan Only). Both Cameras are the same except for color. So yes its something to be excited about.

ONE IMPORTANT feature apparent when looking at the interior of the Voigtlander when loading the film. There is a 6x7 or 6x6 switch on the inner body. So square or landscape, who could ask for more. I am assuming the Fuji will have the same feature.

So that's the news until I have more infoe enjoy the pics....
http://flickr.com/groups/fujirangefinders/discuss/72157611275516585/
 

Attachments

  • 3114620069_8c63178c66_m.jpg
    3114620069_8c63178c66_m.jpg
    18.5 KB · Views: 0
  • 3114623461_4d141dcbdb_m.jpg
    3114623461_4d141dcbdb_m.jpg
    19.3 KB · Views: 0
  • 3115452318_29d3ff461f.jpg
    3115452318_29d3ff461f.jpg
    77.8 KB · Views: 0
We all DO know - look at the posts above. But still now as the long weeks before - we do not know the final specs and the market price. The release date was announced only as "beginning of 2009" what can be March as well as January. So - we just need to be patient. But seeing all those beautiful and relatively cheap RF645 being sold "out there" makes it all worse :eek:
 
david b said:
From a Fuji press release for the upcoming Photokina trade show:

"The FUJIFILM GF670 Professional medium-format camera, developed jointly by Fujifilm and Cosina will also be displayed at Photokina 2008 as a reference exhibit (the camera will be marketed under the FUJIFILM brand in Japan only)."

Why oh why would they not sell it outside of Japan ?
Click to expand...

Can you blame them? From what I gather, the Japanese market has consumers which both appreciate cameras as a craft and as a tool. You can gather on the Intertubes that outside of Japan there's a lot of quibbling on matters unbecoming of a real shooter who appreciates a real camera.
 
My past experience when traveling in Asia was that Japanese products were significantly less expensive outside of Japan compared to the same items purchased from a Japanese retailer within Japan.
 
I am off for a 3 week trek in Ladakh and Zanskar in July. I plan to bring my Fuji gW670III but this camera would be ideal. Anyone (dealer, Voigtlander/Cosina, Fuji) want to loan me one for this trip? The images can be used as demo's for this camera and I give the camera back after the trip.

Frank
www.flickr.com/photos/asialover
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom