LCT
ex-newbie
Thanks for trying to teach me what i learnt on the field 40 years ago. Viewing outside the frame makes part of the essence of all rangefinders, which does not prevent other cams to try to mimick them needless to say.
celluloidprop
Well-known
TV vs window vs blah blah blah arguments always strike me as irrational preferences masquerading as rational arguments. Same when it's one of the greats like Winogrand saying he preferred rangefinders because SLRs "manipulate you into doing things, and pictures taken with SLRs are generally recognizable as such."
Given the number of people over the years who've asked which Leica lens Eugene Richards uses, I find such arguments specious.
Given the number of people over the years who've asked which Leica lens Eugene Richards uses, I find such arguments specious.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
^----- +1. I first used my dad's M3 when I was 4 or 5 years old, and today I use an M probably 85% of the time, but I do not ascribe to it magical properties.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
...and guessing where the frame actually is -- how the film gate aligns with the frame lines for a given lens at a given distance -- is another part of that essence. Leica has helpfully provided frame lines of different sizes for the same lenses over the years, to help ensure that guessing is more difficult than it needs to be. Another way to handicap the rabble, and to keep the serious customers from getting too complacent ;-).
In all honesty, a competent photographer should be able to shoot with both eyes open anyway, and see what's outside of the frame. Serious SLR shooters do this all the time. It falls into the category of basic photographic skills.
Perhaps it's time to re-link Dante's exegesis.
uhoh7
Veteran
thank you
for the record I have M6 and colordial IIIA, and would love to have an M9, but can't afford it right now
So please no lectures on rangefinders.
But most of my shooting is with the little nex 5n--I don't even have an evf at the moment.
despite all limitiations it is small and shoots my 28 cron perfectly fine.
love for RFs I have no problem with, but blind worship.....
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I don't know why anyone who isn't enamored (i.e. indifferent) with rangefinders would use them... they have to be frustrating on many levels if you have no preference.
Lss
Well-known
I don't think such a comparison is usually meant as an objective truth of the matter but more a subjective description of how an individual approaches photography and the final image. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Because they have real strengths in addition to their very real limitations.
I use an M6 because I like the way it feels in the hand, I like the lack of a prism hump, I like the viewfinder system (not because of the rangefinder focus mech., but because of the deep depth of focus), I like the outstanding and compact wide angle lenses, and I like the lack of mirror blackout and relatively quieter shutter versus most film SLRs.
For me these advantages are enough to mitigate the M6's poor framing accuracy, parallax, crap 1/1000 top shutter speed, relatively inaccurate mechanical shutter, and relatively slow and fiddly RF focusing system.
I see no reason to pretend that limitations aren't limitations. It's a camera not a religion. For some of us, anyway.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
If it has shift and tilt and can't readily be used without a tripod, it's not a point-and-shoot. Otherwise, it is.
celluloidprop
Well-known
No more or less frustrating than anything else - after years, I still can't get comfortable moving around to frame with a waist-level finder, I often frame too tight with SLRs (so the looser-style of RFs is nice), etc..
One reason I really like rangefinders, the X100, the NEX-7, etc. is that I can shoot right-eyed. I find that really hard to do with SLRs - shooting left-eyed is fine, and not that big of a deal, but right eyed is more comfortable and feels more stable.
EXksporry
Member
I like the last bit "they have to be frustrating on many levels if you have no preference". Kind of a contradictio in terminus, I mean, if you have no preference, then how can a rangefinder be more frustrating than something else?
True, ksporry, true...
Jim Evidon
Jim
Anyone who thinks any of the current EVF cameras whether NEX7 or another can replace a Leica DRF has been smoking funny stuff.
There is more to the Leica M than resolution whether you are discussing the M8 or M9.
Have you tried to get precision focusing on an EVF? Now compare it to a well adjusted split image or coinciding image RF. On second thought don't bother. There is no comparison. Now try one more test. Set the NEX 7 or any other EVF mirror-less camera
to continuous shooting and follow a bird in flight, a runner, or any other moving object.
Answer: you can't because the EVF freezes with the first image while you try to follow the moving object blindly.
I won't knock EVF cameras. I have two; the wonderful Sony A33 DSLR and a GF1. They are both excellent. But they cannot replace my M8 or anyone else's M8 or M9. Different cameras for different tasks.
There is more to the Leica M than resolution whether you are discussing the M8 or M9.
Have you tried to get precision focusing on an EVF? Now compare it to a well adjusted split image or coinciding image RF. On second thought don't bother. There is no comparison. Now try one more test. Set the NEX 7 or any other EVF mirror-less camera
to continuous shooting and follow a bird in flight, a runner, or any other moving object.
Answer: you can't because the EVF freezes with the first image while you try to follow the moving object blindly.
I won't knock EVF cameras. I have two; the wonderful Sony A33 DSLR and a GF1. They are both excellent. But they cannot replace my M8 or anyone else's M8 or M9. Different cameras for different tasks.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
There are two kinds of photographers: those who are interested in what a camera can't do, and those who are interested in what it can do.
uhoh7
Veteran
How many shots have you made with the 5n or nex-7 EVF?
f/1.1
There is no comparision between any EVF ever made and these two, and until you have spent a few weeks with one you really have no idea what it can or can't do.
Perhaps you need to smoke more funny stuff to open up your mind a bit
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Nobody is doubting these are excellent EVFs, but that does not mean they can replace a rangefinder viewfinder. However, they probably will push the SLR into a similar niche as the RF in the future.
Jim Evidon
Jim
How many shots have you made with the 5n or nex-7 EVF?
f/1.1
There is no comparision between any EVF ever made and these two, and until you have spent a few weeks with one you really have no idea what it can or can't do.
Perhaps you need to smoke more funny stuff to open up your mind a bit
It's true that I have not used the NEX cameras, but they are EVF cameras. So, before I owe anyone an apology, let me ask you as an apparent expert on the subject. When you do multi-shots with an EVF camera whether NEX or not, does the finder freeze on the first image taken making the finder useless in following the subject for the remaining shots or not? According to DPReview and Luminous Landscape, there is no live view feed during continuous shooting although you may know better. Second question: When doing manual focusing, does the edge shimmer feature on the NEX do as accurate a job as a true rangefinder? Probably not, although it is a good step in the right direction.
As I said in my original comments, I own two EVF cameras, a Panasonic GF1 and a Sony A33 DSLR and both are compact, light and very accurate in auto focus mode and when using my M mount lenses, sharp manual focusing is possible, but it takes more time, concentration and care to do so compared to a rangefinder camera which is very quick and dead on.
Each camera has it's virtues and faults. Can you really argue with that?
uhoh7
Veteran
I have taken thousnds of shots now with the nex EVF, and this is something you--or me anyway-- do not notice. Read up on the nex delay or lack there of. 10 fps is somthing to behold, but i'm on continuous mode usually
Some claim it is better, once you learn it. But for really tight DOF, i hit the mag button when i can. The nex is more accurate than any rangefinder with the mag button because the mechanics and focus shift are gone. You don't take your eye off the finder.
with respect, this experience is worse than useless to judge the question, because it is flat out misleading.
The sony nex OLED is nothing like the EVFs on these cameras.
all of this is not to say you may not be right--for you and maybe for me too--but not for everyone. I have read more than one Mx owner claiming they can focus the nex EVF faster.
The M9 is a far superior camera to the Nex-7 for many reasons. But I'm not sure the focusing is a big one.
The full frame...that's a big one.
LCT
ex-newbie
uhoh7, with respect, do you seriously pretend that you can focus manual wides with same speed and accuracy as an M with your Nex? Just (extremely) curious.