jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yes the speculation threads come in the same category.. Breathless consumers - your words - I said nothing about performance - your words again. Nice job of twisting! Is that what you fall back onto when you run out of arguments?
And what assumptions? I only see facts in my post.
And what assumptions? I only see facts in my post.
flyalf
Well-known
Actually I haven't seen support for the assumption of "endless threads praising the Panasonic G, Olympus Pen and now Sony NEX as the perfect Leica replacement or taking M lenses". And I haven't seem anyone claiming to have the "the perfect Leica replacement for taking M lenses", nor have anyone in this thread or in the LL test claimed this.
Any new product is in itself a milestone, but its up to consumers to decide the importance for them of this milestone. Since there are a limited numbers of cameras available that can use the M lenses the NEX-7 might be an important milestone to reuse great quality glass. By having tests and input we can decide if this is a milestone that matters for us.
So please feel free to add your facts and not unsupported assumptions.
IMO you are forgetting the main thing M9 and NEX-7 have in common; they can both produce great images through the great M lenses. The proof is in the pudding.
Nobody denies that NEX-7 are a different camera than M9 with pros and cons. M9 is just is just a different product coming from a different design philosophy aimed at different customer group. So what? I fail to see that someone in this thread are believing the NEX-7 is identical to M9 in any way.
By judging the comments from photographers many are quite relaxed about this or that tool, and are quite aware of shortcomings of the M9 and other products. On the other hand some are more consumerism in the sense that they only cares about one specific product and not the end result. This is of course legitimate, but love of one product is only the fact that one loves the product, not a fact against other products.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
This is still a rangefinder forum and not a point and shoot forum, no matter how good that point and shoot is...
celluloidprop
Well-known
What makes the capable-of-fully-manual control NEX-7 more of a 'point and shoot' than the capable-of-mostly-automatic control M9?
To be honest, you come off as quite irrational in your support and defense of Leica.
To be honest, you come off as quite irrational in your support and defense of Leica.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
NEX=manual, M9=automatic? Wolkenkuckucksland... Now the interesting thing is that I never said anything about the respective quality of the cameras,(so much for defending Leica...), but pointed out that it is silly to equate two totally different products. That would not bother anybody but a shill.As a matter of fact I had an NEX7 on order and only cancelled when I found out it would give problems on my M wideangles. I would really like to have something to build a bridge between my M system and my R/DMR system. I guess I still have to wait till Photokina.
uhoh7
Veteran
I have no intention or need to twist your words. They are clear as can be:
You aree apparently an expert on the n7 performance, since this is still open to question. WHen I pointed this out, you reply:
not the friendliest characterization.
As to "running out of arguements" they have all been stated many times before from both sides.
Since I saw nothing in your other points which hasn't already been said, and I don't really want to argue at at all---I just let them be.
Like a number of people in the thread you seem outright hostile to the conception--the actual testing on which it was based. Somebody else said it best:
lastly:
A breathless consumer ready to jump on the latest craze, then spooked by the incomplete reports about its performance with wides, now, a jilted lover, you call it a "point and shoot"?
Hilarious.anyway no hard feelings
Obvioulsy you are/were a secret fan of the nex-7, but I think you jumped the gun in cancelling your order, not only because the jury is out on the wide performance, but also considering their current ebay prices. Merry Christmas to you and all
trph_2000
Established
I would suggest reading the now 2-3 year old article on LL titled "Do Sensors Outresolve
Lenses ?". It gives a different perspective to this subject.
Lenses ?". It gives a different perspective to this subject.
celluloidprop
Well-known
Yes, the NEX-7 can be used completely manual, the M9 can be largely automatic (aside from focus).
Those are factual statements.
So what was the meaning behind 'point and shoot' regarding the NEX-7, then?
As long as I'm asking - what makes it a point and shoot, any more than a M9?
Er, I don't own a Sony camera and have no plans to buy one. I'm much more interested in what Fuji may soon have to offer.That would not bother anybody but a shill.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Oh yes, I regularly use the creative mode, HD video, smile recognition, PASM metering, , Focus Peaking, Tri-Navi display, Anti motion blur six shot mode, auto HDR and live view on my M9.....you are right on the money.
celluloidprop
Well-known
None of those being required to use the 'point and shoot' NEX-7. Whereas you can, in fact, set the M9 to aperture-priority, auto-ISO - making it, in essence, a manual focus 'point and shoot.'
Which is, of course, the point - the NEX-7 can be used as an entirely manual camera, no more automation involved than my M4, and a M9 can be used as a $7k point and shoot if you so desire.
So your argument referring to the NEX-7 as a p'n's was patently absurd.
Which is, of course, the point - the NEX-7 can be used as an entirely manual camera, no more automation involved than my M4, and a M9 can be used as a $7k point and shoot if you so desire.
So your argument referring to the NEX-7 as a p'n's was patently absurd.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You appear to have a rather unorthodox view of what constitutes a point and shoot. Let me help you with the definition from Wikipedia, which is as good as any:
celluloidprop
Well-known
So, how, exactly, is the NEX-7 - which allows manual focus and manual exposure, particularly with M lenses - a point and shoot again?
f6andBthere
Well-known
I really don't understand why y'all wind yourselves up arguing with jaapv ... about anything!
May as well attempt to alter the movement of the earth around the sun!
May as well attempt to alter the movement of the earth around the sun!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Many point and shoots have an auto-manual switch somewhere in the menu or the choice wheel on top. The NEX is no exception.
celluloidprop
Well-known
lol
Stick with it to the bitter end.
Stick with it to the bitter end.
While I agree that the Nex-7 goes beyond the P&S definition, I have to agree with Jaapv with regard to the Nex-7 being the latest great hope in having a cheap digital M (when the Nex-7 is nothing like a M camera at all). The M9's price tag generates a lot of hate and it is quite silly. Leica has always been expensive and always will be.
celluloidprop
Well-known
No one thinks the NEXes are a 'cheap digital M' - it's a comparatively cheap digital body that easily accepts M-mount glass, like the GXR and u4/3, both of which appear to have a ton of happy users. The NEX-7 just happens to be the first offering with a built-in EVF and 24mp - not shocking that people would get excited over it, just like people got excited when the first full-frame digital rangefinder hit the market.
I've not seen a lot of M9 hate - it inspires a lot of "are you serious" reactions for its price-tag and perceived shortcomings (high ISO performance, SD card issues, various QC issues). That ain't hate.
I've not seen a lot of M9 hate - it inspires a lot of "are you serious" reactions for its price-tag and perceived shortcomings (high ISO performance, SD card issues, various QC issues). That ain't hate.
flyalf
Well-known
This is still a rangefinder forum and not a point and shoot forum, no matter how good that point and shoot is...
Using a Leica M9 and not a NEX-7 I honestly don't mind being called a point-and-shot photographer, nor do I fell offended by using a point-and-shoot camera such as M9.
My apologies for those using a modern camera such as the NEX-7 on behalf of M9 users; we simply feel intimated by more modern technology. Some day we might catch up. Until then please don't publish any photographs using M glass utilizing other cameras. We will try to stick to point-and-shoot with M9 only.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
If we look back to film cameras, there used to be much more likely candidates for Leica lens carrier in the past. Bessas and Zeiss Ikon offered quite similar cameras at far lower price and the results were identical to Leica if one used the same film. Still none of them managed to be a serious competitor.
So it appears the " bang for the buck" argument is not valid.
LCT
ex-newbie
If the Nex-7 had no vignetting and color shift problems with M wides, it would be a better EVIL than the Ricoh GXR A12 or the Nex-5N for Leica users i guess but it would still be a mere EVIL having nothing to do with rangefinders.