Nikkor 105mm f2.5 confusion

[Timmyjoe]

Hi, I am trying to understand the Nikkor 105 lens line. I am looking for, what I believe to be, the Nikkor-P 105mm f2.5 lens with the Sonnar optical design. How are these identified? How can you tell if the 105 lens you are looking at is the Sonnar or Gaussian optical design?

Is it identified on the lens ring? I have seen some lenses with Nikkor-P, Nikkor-P Auto, Nikkor-P.C. Auto, etc.

I have also been told the lens can be identified by the aperture scale. Nikkor-P Auto lenses with an aperture scale that only goes to f22 instead of f32 are supposed to be the Sonnar design.

If anyone knows the definitive answer on this, I would really appreciate hearing from you.

Thank you.

Best,
-Tim

 

[Vickko]

Here is the authoritative reference on the two types.
You differentiate them by the size of the rear element.

http://imaging.nikon.com/history/nikkor/5/

 

[Phil_F_NM]

I'm pretty sure that the P and PC lenses are the same. P just means "Penta" denoting the lens is a 5 element design so this doesn't really help since all the 105mm Nikkors are 5 elements. The C is an early mark which says it's a coated lens. If you get a lens marked with a P or PC Nikkor that is 10.5cm or 105mm then it is a Sonnar. By the time the Ai lenses came out, the P and PC designations were dropped.

If the lens is a 10.5cm then it is most certainly a Sonnar. Once they went to the 105mm designation then there was ambiguity in the design by the end of pre-Ai lens production.

The auto-Nikkors are Sonnars. For the most part, most, if not all of the pre-Ai 105mm Nikkors will be the Sonnar design. It would have to be a very late production lens to be both pre-Ai and the later design.

If you have access to the lens itself, you can look at the rear elements and see the difference. The Ai and AiS designs have elements which are even with or very close to the lens flange, while the Sonnar design lenses have elements which are a bit more inset and are flatter as well. The 105mm Ai and AiS lenses are true telephotos so the lenses are shorter than the long-focus Sonnars.

Phil Forrest

 

[jim_jm]

Tim -

The 105/2.5 was the same Sonnar design as the RF version, and was introduced for the Nikon F in 1959. These include all Nikkor-P lenses made until 1973. Minimum aperture f22 on these lenses.
The design was changed to the Gauss in '73 with the Nikkor-P.C. Obvious differences are the rear element is much larger, min aperture f32, min focus down to 1 meter and improved coatings. These start at #500001, according to Braczko's "Complete Nikon System".
The AI version of this lens came out in '77 and the min aperture went back to f22.
The AIS version in '81 added a built-in lens hood.

I have the RF version, the Nikkor-P and the AIS versions of this lens and they are all outstanding. The AIS is one of my sharpest and favorite lenses to shoot.

Michael Liu's site has a ton of great information and photos at http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/105mmnikkor/index.htm

Cheers!

 

[sevo]

Lenses starting with 4xxxxx are the new (Gaussian) type - there were two batches of pre K type lenses, those in the 400k range are single coated Nikkor-P, those above 5xxxxx are multicoated and inscribed Nikkor-P.C Auto. All K and AI lenses are Gaussian type.

 

[Highway 61]

The later designs are way better optically as for sharpness and resolution, and have a nicer bokeh than the early Sonnar type (which exhibits some unpleasant "ni-sen" bokeh, i.e., double lines around the edges of things being in the OOF area). I'd go for an Ai version if I hadn't an optically superlative Ai-S already (better construction with no plastic inside : there is some plastic in the Ai-S lenses unfortunately and they often wobble a bit after some years when the helical grease begin to get dry and allow for a bit of mechanical play).

 

[Dwig]

...The C is an early mark which says it's a coated lens. ...

While true for some very early Nikkors, this is not true of the later RF lenses nor of any of the F-mount Nikkors. All F-mount Nikkors, with the exception of the UV-Nikkors, are coated.

The ".c" marking indicates multi-layer coating of at least 8 layers on all glass-to-air surfaced. Nikon's earlier multi-coating was unmarked. It was used on several lenses including some surfaces on all 35mm f/1.4 and Planar-derived 105 f/2.5 lenses prior to the introduction of Nikon's Integrated Coating and the ".c" mark. Most surfaces on non-".c" F-mount Nikkors were single layer coated, including all glass-to-air surfaces on all Sonnar-derived 105 f/2.5 Nikkors.

Brief summary of the Sonnar-based 105 f/2.5:
all have a chrome front barrel
all have a smaller rear element
all have a 3.5 ft, as opposes to a 3 ft, minimum focusing distance
NONE are makred "Nikkor-P.c"

 

[Shac]

Look here as well http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/lenses.html#105

 

[jim_jm]

Lenses starting with 4xxxxx are the new (Gaussian) type - there were two batches of pre K type lenses, those in the 400k range are single coated Nikkor-P, those above 5xxxxx are multicoated and inscribed Nikkor-P.C Auto. All K and AI lenses are Gaussian type.

Sevo - I stand corrected. Just looked at Uli Koch's "Nikon F - The Lenses" and he states the aperture changed to f32 in 1971, still engraved Nikkor-P with serial numbers starting 40xxxx. He mentions changes to the optics, but doesn't clearly state if this was also the change to the Gauss design, but that seems to be the case.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

120101 - 172522
194011 - 221768
234011 - 286276

Are all Sonnar, as Sevo says anything starting with a 4 or higher is not.

You can look at elements if you want to 😀

 

[Timmyjoe]

Thanks to everyone for all the information.

A follow up question if I may. I am working on a Black and White film project that originally was shot with a Leica M3 and a 50mm Summicron (latest version). As I continue the project, without that Leica camera and lens, and with the addition of shooting some portraits with a short telephoto lens, I am trying to determine which Nikkor 105 is going to give me the best B&W portraiture, and hopefully not be too far from the look I got with the Leica combo.

I have read numerous glowing reviews of the Nikkor P 105 f2.5 (Sonnar) lens, in particular with shooting B&W (Tri-X in my case). Can any of you shed some light on the performance of the different Nikkor 105 lenses as it pertains to B&W portraiture?

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Best,
-Tim

 

[willie_901]

I am very fond of my Nikkor 105/2.5 AI lens.

I liquidated my all the other AI and AIS lenses in my collection when I swithed to the Fuji X system.

I did keep a Nippon Kogaku NIKKOR-S Auto 50mm f/1.4 lens because it renders so differently from modern lenses.

 

[x-ray]

The later designs are way better optically as for sharpness and resolution, and have a nicer bokeh than the early Sonnar type (which exhibits some unpleasant "ni-sen" bokeh, i.e., double lines around the edges of things being in the OOF area). I'd go for an Ai version if I hadn't an optically superlative Ai-S already (better construction with no plastic inside : there is some plastic in the Ai-S lenses unfortunately and they often wobble a bit after some years when the helical grease begin to get dry and allow for a bit of mechanical play).

I have both the Sonnar and newer design and completely agree the later design is much better. Beautiful, sharp and rounded images. Lovely on both digital and film.

 

[De_Corday]

I always thought the letter after Nikkor referred to the aperture blades, not the elements... for example my Nikkor-H 85mm has six aperture blades

 

[JMQ]

The letter after the word Nikkor refers to the number of elements. I'm 100% sure.

 

[venchka]

I always thought the letter after Nikkor referred to the aperture blades, not the elements... for example my Nikkor-H 85mm has six aperture blades

Elements in Latin. Always elements.

I owned the first version in F mount. I loved the lens then (late 60s) and still like the photos I took with the lens. For that reason I have longed for the LTM version to use on my rangefinder cameras. Alas, they got too rich for my budget. Perhaps I will buy a Sony A7 & the early 105/2.5 lens in F mount?
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 105mm f/1.8 lens. A friend has one. I find his work with that lens is quite nice.

Wayne

 

[raid]

I have the SLR version (Sonnar) and the LTM version. Both lenses are superb.

 

[peterm1]

For quite a few years I have own a Nikon F early Sonnar version that was factory converted to AI spec for mounting on later cameras and love its images. Recently I found at a good price a non AI early (K type) Gauss version that is yet to be AI'd . I will perform this minor surgery soon so I can compare the two. Everyone says its better than the older lens. If so all I can say is it must be damn good.

 

[venchka]

To me, "better", when it comes to newer lenses, doesn't always mean better for me. Know what I mean?

Wayne

 

[redisburning]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the 105mm f/1.8 lens. A friend has one. I find his work with that lens is quite nice.

Wayne

Wayne,

I had that one.

I did not like the lens; tacky build quality and majorly bad OoF rendering wide open for my taste.

There are some really spectacular lenses in this focal length that are head and shoulders above, IMO, like the 100 Makro-Sonnar for Contax N, which isnt THAT much more. And there is always the ZF 100 Makro-Planar if you want to carry around that much weight.

2c.

the 2.5 Sonnar is a nice lens and offers a better overall package IMO.