Nikon announces full-frame mirrorless camera

RObert Budding said:
I seriously doubt that the D850 will be Nikon's last professional DSLR. There is a massive installed base of F lenses, and there is no way that Nikon would stop selling bodies to willing consumers. Besides - dropping new DSLR bodies would only encourage existing clients to look at brands other than Nikon. Ain't gonna happen.
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Yes they'll continue making DSLR bodies, for a while, but not forever. I made it very clear in the last post that "cameras like the Sony a99 II will continue to be released", but "no more new lenses" - and all these won't happen overnight. In the end the need will die out. That's how you slowly albeit steadily euthanase a system - as shown by Sony who had already worked for almost a decade to phase the A mount out. The death of the much more established F will take longer, but we will get there.

It's not a bad thing as used cameras will still circulate around, and the F lenses stock is so huge that it could very likely last decades. We will still be enjoying them then like we are enjoying the older F cameras now. It had long ended for anyone who primarily shoot film Nikons anyway. The rangefinder, the mechanical, the manual focus. All dead now. The mirrorbox? I don't see why it could be an exception.

It won't hurt to live in the long shadow cast by the inevitable twilight. Tomorrow will come anyway.
 
Archlich said:
Yes they'll continue making DSLR bodies, for a while, but not forever. I made it very clear in the last post that "cameras like the Sony a99 II will continue to be released", but "no more new lenses" - and all these won't happen overnight. In the end the need will die out. That's how you slowly albeit steadily euthanase a system - as shown by Sony who had already worked for almost a decade to phase the A mount out. The death of the much more established F will much longer, but we will get there.

It's not a bad thing as used cameras will still circulate around, and the F lenses stock is so huge that it could very likely last decades. We will still be enjoying them like we are enjoying the older F cameras now. It had long ended for anyone who primarily shoot film Nikons anyway. The rangefinder, the mechanical, the manual focus. All dead now. The mirrorbox? I don't see why it could be an exception.

It won't hurt to live in the long shadow cast by the inevitable twilight. Tomorrow will come anyway.
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That's a bit more reasonable than saying that the D850 is the last Nikon DSLR. I still haven't seen an electronic viewfinder that's a nice as the view through an SLR mirror, though.
 
Rather than try to reach some conclusion based on half a dozen silhouettes, I'll wait until full information is available. Initial lens availability and the lens roadmap are critical.
 
Timmyjoe said:
...
And their production of the D850 camera seems to be very slow. They've been out of stock here in the States from almost the day they were introduced.
..
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The thing with the D850 availability is ignore the big shops. The default - pushed by financial sponsorship to numerous websites - are the big players like B&H, Adorama etc. A camera comes in, people automatically try to buy it from them thanks to all the links etc.
I bought my D850 from Roberts Camera. After I placed my order I got it a week later. And I was given the choice of next day shipping or a second battery. I took the second/additional battery. All the while B&H could not give me a delivery date, or where I was in line.

As a digression, this camera is insane. I had a shoot and paired it with a Sigma 50 Art lens. Not only was the detail nuts (and essentially with zero effort by me) but there were a handful of shots that I completely missed the exposure. The RAW files looked completely blown out with missing detail but I was able to bring it all back by just playing with the exposure slider in LR. And it looked completely normal. Thank you Sony for this sensor!
It's not just the MP that Leica is behind, but the flexibility of those sensors. My M pretty much cannot recover missed exposures like other cameras with more modern sensors. Of course the answer is to expose correctly, but sometimes that just doesn't happen.

Anyway, the D850 is an awesome camera both with AF lenses and manual lenses. It has by far the best manual focusing accuracy of any DSLR out there. Nikon's mirrorless will build on this. It will be like a Sony A series, but with better handling, better menus and better build. The D850/D500 etc already are much nicer to handle than Sonys. Their menus are much much better. And they are built better (just check out the lack of weather resistance in Sonys).

But I don't think I'd get one because I'm good with the D850. And if I want a mirrorless to use my SLR lenses, I can pick up a used A7 series for cheap now. A7ii in excellent condition can be had for under $1K, A7rii under $1400.
Or I'll just use my M (for M lenses) and slap on an adapter to use my SLR lenses.
 
And the 850 is cinema competent big time.

For this new no mirror unit to be the cats meow it must take the cinema crown from Canon. My opinion.

True 4K. Internal stabilization. No wack effects on video from sensor filters or whatever. No strange artifacts using adapted F mount. Can I pull great stills out of the video? If it is MIJ then they are serious.

If it does all of this it is golden.

I do wish they would have been a bit more zen with it...sort of boring looking.
 
xayraa33 said:
I don't know how current this is now or even to any degree of accuracy or reality, but up to four months ago the reputed Canon FF mirrorless camera mock-up was shown to be styled after the 1970s Canon FTb SLR .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_bXF3D34Ps
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This is 100% fake

Aperture ring on the lens is a dead giveaway.

It'll be styled like the EOS line, and it should be, they're built that way because they're more functional.


As a Canon user I'm contractually obligated to say that it's good to see Nikon finally adopt a decent sized mount that won't hold back its lenses.

On a more honest level, I've used both mirrorless and SLR cameras, the Sony sensors are truly outstanding, but mirrorless cameras have got a long way to go to catch up with SLRs in use.
 
BlackXList said:
This is 100% fake

Aperture ring on the lens is a dead giveaway.

It'll be styled like the EOS line, and it should be, they're built that way because they're more functional.
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Who really knows ?

Anything is possible.

Canon will also have a new lens mount for their FF mirrorless cameras and if they are not the usual ridiculous sized humongous lens monstrosities that are on Sony FF Mirrorless... and by the looks of it they will be that way "Honkin' big Lenses "on the new Nikon FF mirrorless camera too, then it will be a good thing.

The huge physical design of built-in AF and image stabilisation do-all lenses on these new FF mirrorless cameras defeat the whole premise and raison d'être of a fine and high quality and very portable compact FF mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses.
 
xayraa33 said:
The huge physical design of built-in AF and image stabilisation do-all lenses on these new FF mirrorless cameras defeat the whole premise and raison d'être of a fine and high quality and very portable compact FF mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses.
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Yep... ...
 
Interesting. Until now I always thought Sony E mount was actually pretty good, allowing easy adapting etc. Now am reading here it's too narrow.
 
xayraa33 said:
The huge physical design of built-in AF and image stabilisation do-all lenses on these new FF mirrorless cameras defeat the whole premise and raison d'être of a fine and high quality and very portable compact FF mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses.
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Although I feel the same, but it's inevitable. The current trend is the general users crave for resolution, and lenses have to adopt very sophisticated, highly corrected designs to accommodate such need. Here the physical law comes in. A full frame lens that is sharp corner to corner wide open at f/1.4 on a 42MP sensor like the Otus will have to be huge.

If size matters, buy cameras with small sensors, or slower lenses, or less well-corrected ones. If full frame is mandatory the Samyang 35/2.8 pancake for the Sony cameras is excellent. The ZM/Loxias are nice too. There is still a choice, as long as you don't ask for everything.
 
jarski said:
Interesting. Until now I always thought Sony E mount was actually pretty good, allowing easy adapting etc. Now am reading here it's too narrow.
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I think the potential advantage of Nikon's new mount is future compatibility with larger sensors.

The SONY mount could be too narrow for larger sensors.

If larger sensors never supplant the 24 X 36mm format, the SONY E mount has no disadvantage.
 
RObert Budding said:
The D850 sensor is a Nikon design, manufactured by Sony. ...
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The D850 has a wonderful sensor assembly. No doubt Nikon customized the sensor assembly (cover glass, IR, filter color-filter array, micro-lens assembly) for optimum performance with their lenses, AF, etc. Based on statistical analyses of un-rendered raw-file data I will speculate the sensor photo-diode beds (photo-diodes, DC amplification, ADC) are essentially identical (links below). Both sensors use Aptina's dual-conversion gain technology and both sensors switch from low gain to high gain at ISO 640.

In terms of technical performance (S/N, DR, ISO invariance) the D850 and SONY a7RIII are nearly identical (link 1, link 2).
 
willie_901 said:
If larger sensors never supplant the 24 X 36mm format, the SONY E mount has no disadvantage.
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It has: The optical engineers at Sigma explained it very well (see link above). Because of its diameter and flange distance it is more difficult to make lenses with wider apertures like 1.4 and 1.2, especially for shorter focal lenghts.
There is a reason why there is a gap in the Sony lens programme and the programmes of other lens manufacturers concerning the E mount.

Cheers, Jan
 
NickTrop said:
This is what Nikon will exploit. Nikon sat back, let Sony develop the market, and when the timinig is right, will come in with a better product. Timing is everything, boysans. This is why Nikon just celebrated its 101 anniversary:

"The Sigma CEO has been quoted as expressing grave concern for the narrowness of the FE mount diameter:

"…the diameter is very small and makes it difficult to design high quality FF lenses … it almost looks like E-mount was designed for APS-C more than FF.


(Little wonder Sigma and Tamron don’t want to spend money on R&D for FE mount lenses, leaving us stuck mostly with expensive options from Sony and Zeiss.)

We also know that a narrow mount diameter is a big no-no with IBIS."

IBM was not the first mainframe maker. They sat back, "took notes", waited to see if the mainframe market was real/mirage, , short-term/long-term. Then, when the time was right came in and dominated with a better product that exploited the weaknesses of its competitors.

There is no size advantage with mirrorless once you slap (the vast majority of) a lens on the camera. So no need to have a "who can be the smallest contest". There is an area to exploit with the Sony mount. Too small. Nikon exploited it. There is a weakness to exploit with battery life if you're willing to be sensible about camera size. Expect a camera with much better, DSLR-like battery life. The camera will likely have in-body stabilization that's better than Sony. Faster/better lenses, better battery life (in all likelihood), better in-body stabilization. Camera might top Sony in video (by virtue of newness...). Sony is married to its mount. They can't, rightfully, come out with a different wider mount now, can they? No. No, they can't.

I'd say that's game, set, match.

Although I am happy with the camera bodies I currently own and am not in the market, I will always support those companies that have served the the photographic community long-term, like Nikon has for 101 years...

... over an electronic gadget/entertainment conglomerate that drifts in and out of markets. I don't want the same company responsible for the Ghostbusters remake making my stinkin' camera. Samsung? Out of the camera market. Casio? Out of the camera market. Panasonic? Probably next. Sony? When times get tough, they're apt to bail me thinks. There's ample precedence for this. Nikon? They'll fight to survive or die trying.

They're a camera maker.

I'm on team Nikon.

https://petapixel.com/2016/04/04/sonys-full-frame-pro-mirrorless-fatal-mistake/
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I hope you're correct that Nikon has been strategic in their delay, and that this will be a big win for them. I'm at least as exciting to see what amazing lenses fit the camera as I am for the camera itself.

I would like to know more about the history of mainframes though. IBM came along very early to the computer industry, built the first supercomputer, airline reservation system, and hard drive, and probably other stuff I'm leaving out. What was building mainframes before them?
 
mich rassena said:
I would like to know more about the history of mainframes though. IBM came along very early to the computer industry, built the first supercomputer, airline reservation system, and hard drive, and probably other stuff I'm leaving out. What was building mainframes before them?
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IBM was almost forced into the mainframe business by Metlife. My recollection is that Thomas Watson Sr (IBM CEO) wanted no parts of mainframe computers. However, Metlife was a major IBM client, was storing physical paper of their policies and wanted to store the policies on tape to take up far less physical real estate.

Thomas Watson Jr lead the charge of IBM's entrance into the mainframe business.

I remember this as I used to teach a course in hardware and showed part of a documentary series video available on Youtube on The History of Computers where Tom Watson Jr was intereviewed. I believe (don't quote) Burroughs, UNIVAC, and Honeywell were in the market before IBM but once IBM entered the market with their 700 series, they dominated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPDy2y4AjSo
 
willie_901 said:
The D850 has a wonderful sensor assembly. No doubt Nikon customized the sensor assembly (cover glass, IR, filter color-filter array, micro-lens assembly) for optimum performance with their lenses, AF, etc. Based on statistical analyses of un-rendered raw-file data I will speculate the sensor photo-diode beds (photo-diodes, DC amplification, ADC) are essentially identical (links below). Both sensors use Aptina's dual-conversion gain technology and both sensors switch from low gain to high gain at ISO 640.

In terms of technical performance (S/N, DR, ISO invariance) the D850 and SONY a7RIII are nearly identical (link 1, link 2).
Click to expand...

That's why I included a link to Thom hogan's article in my post. Nikon didn't start with a clean sheet of paper.
 
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