Tim, very interesting! Could you give us some details on how you built your shutter tester?
Nikon F2 Shutter issue
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Tim, very interesting! Could you give us some details on how you built your shutter tester?
Timmyjoe
Veteran
It's based on what this guy did, but his did not work for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmy0VBk5B8
I took that principal and used an iPhone for light source, the test camera without a lens, and a digital camera with a macro lens. It's pretty simple and works great for observing shutter bounce.
Best,
-Tim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsmy0VBk5B8
I took that principal and used an iPhone for light source, the test camera without a lens, and a digital camera with a macro lens. It's pretty simple and works great for observing shutter bounce.
Best,
-Tim
Timmyjoe
Veteran
**Frustrated Photographer Rant**
If these stupid F2 cameras are supposed to be so darn reliable and bullet proof, how come I've had nothing but shutter problems with mine ever since I got it. After fussing with it not working right for the first few months, I brought it to a reputable shop and they said they replaced the whole stinking shutter. And that lasted less than six months. What the Heck! I've had more reliable disposable cameras.
**Rant Over**
If these stupid F2 cameras are supposed to be so darn reliable and bullet proof, how come I've had nothing but shutter problems with mine ever since I got it. After fussing with it not working right for the first few months, I brought it to a reputable shop and they said they replaced the whole stinking shutter. And that lasted less than six months. What the Heck! I've had more reliable disposable cameras.
**Rant Over**
I have to admit when I looked at the photo you posted, my first thought was whether the first curtain was bouncing back a bit. Simply because the image shows such a narrow band of reduced exposure so close to the frame edge, that is reasonably crisply defined. Uneven exposure due to the second curtain catching the first tends to happen over a somewhat wider portion of the frame, in most cases. Sorry to hear of your problems. The Nikon F series have a pretty good reputation for reliability. Given that a new shutter has been installed, I suspect it's just an adjustment issue.
Cheers,
Brett
Cheers,
Brett
Paulbe
Well-known
Tim--face it--you probably have a bad example. I've used F2s since I bought one new in 1972 and have never had a failure. In fact, among the Nikons I have,---no failures. As cheap as F2s are, get another one. They are going crazy cheap on kehoutlet. Or--have the one you have serviced by Jim at Vermont camera repair and rest easy. I have several serviced by him and they work great! F2s were made by the millions; surely there is a good one for you out there somewhere---!
Paul
Paul
Flat Twin
Film Shooter
I once asked Sover Wong to replace a shutter in an F2/T that had a holed curtain. He advised against it. His advice was that the shutter is very difficult to replace and set up correctly afterwards and that problems definitely could arise.
His advice was to use the shutter crate from a known good donor body. I just wonder whether your repairer might have experienced those problems in setting the camera up after shutter replacement.
I noticed that you have already spoken to Sover, perhaps contact him again and ask his opinion on shutter replacement and its difficulties...?
Just my two pennies worth.
Regards
Simon
Highway 61
Revisited
I've heard once that the F2 bodies with a s/n beginning by 74 could have repetitive shutter problems. Unfortunately I have one and I'm not too sure about its shutter, which sounds dry.
What about yours ?
I assume you have a finder. The good point is that late F2 bodies without their finders can be bought for not that much off eBay.
In my experience the F2 bodies with s/n beginning by 78 are indeed bullet proof. I still have one and had two others in the past.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
The serial number on mine is in the 73XXXXX range. The shop is insisting that they put in a new shutter mechanism, not from another camera. I guess it's just way out of whack. The camera looks like it's had a rough life, so maybe the body is better tossed in the ash can. I've already spent WAY TOO MUCH money and time on it, trying to get it working properly. In the short time it did work properly, I loved shooting with it.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Hi everyone. First, I want to thank everyone for their input, it has all been really helpful. This is an issue that doesn't follow logical thinking as I have heard from a number of different technicians I've talked to about what it could be. Some thought it was shutter bounce, some others thought absolutely not.
Someone from another forum made a suggestion that I didn't know was possible. My crude shutter tester uses my Nikon 1 V2 camera. I was not aware that this camera can shoot 1200 fps video. Once I figured out how to do that, I was able to make a video, and sure enough, the first curtain is coming completely across, disappearing out of frame, and then bouncing back into the frame for a split second before the second curtain comes across.
The V2 will only capture a small area at that frame rate, so here is the slice I took of the shutter mechanism for the video.
And here is a Quicktime movie of the shutter at 1/250th of a second (the speed where the issue is the worst). If you watch the video carefully you can see the first shutter curtain finishing it's travel and then "bouncing" back into the frame.
http://www.timcarrollphotography.com/Forums/Bounce.mov
Here are a few individual frames from the video (the orange background was the light source showing through the open shutter):
First curtain finishing its travel:
First curtain starting to bounce back into the frame:
First curtain stops into the frame as second curtain is finishing its travel:
And finally second curtain finishing its travel (and maybe pushing first curtain back out of the frame);
Maybe I'm weird, but I do find this fascinating, although frustrating.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Best,
-Tim
Someone from another forum made a suggestion that I didn't know was possible. My crude shutter tester uses my Nikon 1 V2 camera. I was not aware that this camera can shoot 1200 fps video. Once I figured out how to do that, I was able to make a video, and sure enough, the first curtain is coming completely across, disappearing out of frame, and then bouncing back into the frame for a split second before the second curtain comes across.
The V2 will only capture a small area at that frame rate, so here is the slice I took of the shutter mechanism for the video.
And here is a Quicktime movie of the shutter at 1/250th of a second (the speed where the issue is the worst). If you watch the video carefully you can see the first shutter curtain finishing it's travel and then "bouncing" back into the frame.
http://www.timcarrollphotography.com/Forums/Bounce.mov
Here are a few individual frames from the video (the orange background was the light source showing through the open shutter):
First curtain finishing its travel:
First curtain starting to bounce back into the frame:
First curtain stops into the frame as second curtain is finishing its travel:
And finally second curtain finishing its travel (and maybe pushing first curtain back out of the frame);
Maybe I'm weird, but I do find this fascinating, although frustrating.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
Best,
-Tim
Jerevan
Recycled User
Wow - good catch!
Then you know what it is at least - now on to fixing it! 🙂
Then you know what it is at least - now on to fixing it! 🙂
Godfrey
somewhat colored
You've had a bad time with one F2 body, a camera that is at minimum 35 years old (could be as much as 45 years old) and has an unknown history of use, abuse, damage, and repair. Any camera that old can have a huge number of problems dependent upon how it has been treated through its lifetime. F2s fully deserve the reputation they have for robustness and reliability, but any F2 can be trashed out from abuse, just like any other camera.
The shop that did the overhaul for you did a poor job. Either just the luck of the draw—the tech had a bad day—or they didn't evaluate deeply enough. What specifically does "replace the whole shutter" mean? New curtains, new support structure, new timing gear train, etc etc? Could mean any number of things, and they might not have gotten the right bit repaired.
Find another shop and have them assess the body. I've heard nothing but good things about Sover Wong's work on Nikon F2 bodies:
http://www.soverf2repair.webs.com
G
_goodtimez
Well-known
Intersting technical story. I like the movie confirming the fault.
Could that not be just a little more tension required on the first curtain ? Or any sort of brake mechanism ?
Could that not be just a little more tension required on the first curtain ? Or any sort of brake mechanism ?
RayK
Member
After viewing your film clip it appears to me that the second curtain is bouncing as well.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
I have no idea.
I sent it back to the first shop and when I get it back, if it still isn't fixed, I'll probably buy a body from Sover. This body has had a hard life and I'm not interested in spending any more money on it. I'll use the finder, focus screen, back, etc. on another F2 body.
Best,
-Tim
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Sure looks like it.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Given that there is a significant lack of spares, even more so when it come to the greater modules, like curtains, crates or escapements, if they did not lie entirely about that "new", anything new that got added probably was limited to dousing the shutter with fresh WD40. :bang:
Timmyjoe
Veteran
They used to be a Nikon service center and supposedly they have a wealth of NOS parts for the early F cameras. When I asked them they would not clarify what they replaced, but they did say they used all NOS parts. I know the curtains are the original ones because they have a slight wrinkle that I noticed when I first got the camera.
farlymac
PF McFarland
So they never "replaced" the shutter. Any place that won't tell you exactly what they changed out is hiding something. And the curtains shouldn't be bouncing like that. If you're not satisfied with the work, I'd get a refund.
PF
PF
Godfrey
somewhat colored
That makes me worry about their credibility.
When I had my Robot Star 50 overhauled, the invoice included a complete list with part numbers for all the bits replaced, and the old parts were returned as well. This sort of clear communications inspires confidence in a repair.
G
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Yeah it would. Part of the reason I started this thread is because I don't have a lot of confidence in this shop and I wanted to get as much information about the problem as I could so when I talked to them I wasn't coming from a complete place of ignorance.
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