B-9
Devin Bro
Hello all!
I have been shooting predominately Leica cameras for the past 5 years. Everything from an early black/nickel III to a M4-2. I love a good mechanical camera, but ive been spoiling myself with my Fuji X100, and have often times just taken my IIIF RDST with my new snapshot skopar for those times when I want wider than 35.
For ME, the X100 does most of my day to day shooting, eliminating a good amount of cost for snapshots, and family photo's. Not to mention I havnt sat down to develope since before Christmas. In my defense my 150 year old house doesnt like to maintain a steady temperature here in a Michigan Winter.
So ive been pondering, and drooling, and researching, and drooling some more. Ive always been tempted by Tom's posts of gorgeously worn Nikon S's and more recently, the Bessa R2s/c camera's. Ive never actually held a Nikon rangefinder, or shot any Nikkor S lenses, but I loved my Nikon F's/F2's with their dreamy F mount optics and classic style.
I have a few general questions/concerns, if anyone could patiently help me elaborate on.
What is the best Nikon RF body for me?
I shoot Primarily 25/35 but as of late leaning towards a kit of 35/50/85 for my film shooting.
Im looking at the S3/SP or a Bessa R2s (but im not sure im willing to sacrifice all metal build, for a built in meter)
Having little knowledge of these camera's, what should I look out for when buying used? Aside from the typical freely moving levers and clear VF.
Which of the two (S3/SP) is more affordable? or least collectible.
Has anyone moved from a Nikon to a Bessa? For what reason's?
Im planning to sell my entire Leica kit, to experience something new. (If I hate it, my gear is generic enough to replace readily)
That means moving my M4-2 and IIIF RDST along with a handful of screwmount lenses. Im hoping to gain a budget of around 1400$ realistically.
Within this budget, what would you recommend?
Ide hope to get atleast 2 lenses (35/50) and a user body, am I dreaming? Im also lusting over the 85 Nikkor can anyone recommend this lens? maybe some examples? fair used prices?
I apologize if my post is here and there, Typing on a smartphone doesnt allow me a whole lot of convenience. Thanks a ton in advance!
I have been shooting predominately Leica cameras for the past 5 years. Everything from an early black/nickel III to a M4-2. I love a good mechanical camera, but ive been spoiling myself with my Fuji X100, and have often times just taken my IIIF RDST with my new snapshot skopar for those times when I want wider than 35.
For ME, the X100 does most of my day to day shooting, eliminating a good amount of cost for snapshots, and family photo's. Not to mention I havnt sat down to develope since before Christmas. In my defense my 150 year old house doesnt like to maintain a steady temperature here in a Michigan Winter.
So ive been pondering, and drooling, and researching, and drooling some more. Ive always been tempted by Tom's posts of gorgeously worn Nikon S's and more recently, the Bessa R2s/c camera's. Ive never actually held a Nikon rangefinder, or shot any Nikkor S lenses, but I loved my Nikon F's/F2's with their dreamy F mount optics and classic style.
I have a few general questions/concerns, if anyone could patiently help me elaborate on.
What is the best Nikon RF body for me?
I shoot Primarily 25/35 but as of late leaning towards a kit of 35/50/85 for my film shooting.
Im looking at the S3/SP or a Bessa R2s (but im not sure im willing to sacrifice all metal build, for a built in meter)
Having little knowledge of these camera's, what should I look out for when buying used? Aside from the typical freely moving levers and clear VF.
Which of the two (S3/SP) is more affordable? or least collectible.
Has anyone moved from a Nikon to a Bessa? For what reason's?
Im planning to sell my entire Leica kit, to experience something new. (If I hate it, my gear is generic enough to replace readily)
That means moving my M4-2 and IIIF RDST along with a handful of screwmount lenses. Im hoping to gain a budget of around 1400$ realistically.
Within this budget, what would you recommend?
Ide hope to get atleast 2 lenses (35/50) and a user body, am I dreaming? Im also lusting over the 85 Nikkor can anyone recommend this lens? maybe some examples? fair used prices?
I apologize if my post is here and there, Typing on a smartphone doesnt allow me a whole lot of convenience. Thanks a ton in advance!
B-9
Devin Bro
Just thought of another important question,
Any recommended repair guys/gals?
Ive typically used Youxin, or done repairs myself (not at first in this case).
So any information on DIY repairs, manuals, and service specialists would be greatly appreciated!
Any recommended repair guys/gals?
Ive typically used Youxin, or done repairs myself (not at first in this case).
So any information on DIY repairs, manuals, and service specialists would be greatly appreciated!
Corran
Well-known
I have an SP and a Bessa R2S. They are both nice for different reasons. The Nikon certainly feels better in the hand - not to mention the fantastic 1:1 finder with 50/85/105/135 framelines and the aux. 28/35 finder. I find myself defaulting to a 21/35/50/105 kit or a 25 or 28 instead of the 21/35 if I'm traveling lighter, with the SP, but with the Bessa I just go with 35/50 (the 85mm doesn't focus real well on it) and maybe a 21/25 depending if I feel like bringing an aux. finder.
leicapixie
Well-known
Never sell your Leica gear. Never.
The Nikon RF system is good.
Not spectacular.
The RF image, no comparison to a M.
The Bessas are OK.
Not built to last like the Leica-M or the Barnack.
Look for a well used body, a lens, that does NOT require,
selling your gear.
The Nikon RF system is good.
Not spectacular.
The RF image, no comparison to a M.
The Bessas are OK.
Not built to last like the Leica-M or the Barnack.
Look for a well used body, a lens, that does NOT require,
selling your gear.
marcr1230
Well-known
if you just want to use a 50, go with the S2 - it's simple and perfect for it
if you want the 35/50/85 trinity - I suggest the SP
SP is the ultimate Nikon rangefinder
the S3 is pretty close mechanically - but the finder is a little different. The SP has
mechanically stacking frame lines in the finder for 5.0cm, 8.5, 10.5 and 13.5 - If I remember the S3 has etched frame lines. The SP has a separate finder for 28/35
SP had later versions with a titanium shutter (no worry of the sun burning a hole in that )
SP and Nikon F share a lot of parts - it's possible to transplant the F titanium shutter to the SP.
All 3 have different finder patch colors - you might find one works better with your eyes
I had trouble with the S3's patch (an S3 2000)
The S2 shutter speed dial has a rotating center - so you need to be careful not to touch it while shooting - not too careful since it doesn't fall under your finger easily.
the SP probably wins the prize as the coolest looking Nikon.
The S2 is a great workhorse
all the Nikons as far as I know, need little in the way of care and CLA and tend to shoot pretty well even after years of non-use
the lens mount is a modified Contax mount - sometimes needs cleaning and lube - but seems to work well regardless.
good luck and enjoy!
if you want the 35/50/85 trinity - I suggest the SP
SP is the ultimate Nikon rangefinder
the S3 is pretty close mechanically - but the finder is a little different. The SP has
mechanically stacking frame lines in the finder for 5.0cm, 8.5, 10.5 and 13.5 - If I remember the S3 has etched frame lines. The SP has a separate finder for 28/35
SP had later versions with a titanium shutter (no worry of the sun burning a hole in that )
SP and Nikon F share a lot of parts - it's possible to transplant the F titanium shutter to the SP.
All 3 have different finder patch colors - you might find one works better with your eyes
I had trouble with the S3's patch (an S3 2000)
The S2 shutter speed dial has a rotating center - so you need to be careful not to touch it while shooting - not too careful since it doesn't fall under your finger easily.
the SP probably wins the prize as the coolest looking Nikon.
The S2 is a great workhorse
all the Nikons as far as I know, need little in the way of care and CLA and tend to shoot pretty well even after years of non-use
the lens mount is a modified Contax mount - sometimes needs cleaning and lube - but seems to work well regardless.
good luck and enjoy!
B-9
Devin Bro
The SP seems like the big winner, but it does also appear more expensive? My limited searchs on eBay, suggest not alot of these camera's come for sale, and typically have unreal buy it now prices.
I find myself shooting 35mm most, and wouldnt mind a slower 3.5 nikkor if I could afford a 1.4 50mm in my budget. I most definitely plan to invest in the 85mm f2.0 nikkor sometime down the line along with the cheaply had 25 or 28mm Voigtlander.
Thanks a bunch for your input!
As for not selling the Leica's, I cant afford a move any other way. I have a meager budget being 23, a first home owner, and a sort of free spirit. By no means is this a life changing decision, but Im eager to try new things, and im perfectly fine letting the Leica's go to facilitate it all.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
If you are using 35/50 as primary lenses - I would go for the S3. They tend to be well priced - and often comes with the 50f1.4. Pick up a Nikkor 35f2.5 to go with it. The S3 has finders for35/50/105 (not 85) but in a pinch you can use it and estimate between the 50 and 85 (or simply use an external finder)
The SP has a pretty full complement of finder, from 28 to 135 - BUT the 35 and 28 are off set and you have to shift your eye to see them. Not a big real though. On the S3 all three finders are shown together - gets bit crowded but it is manageable - and you do get used to it quickly.
The R2s is great for when you need an "on board" meter. I tend to use it when I load cameras with either very slow film or 800 iso + film.
As for durability, very few problems. I have had a shutter curtain"crack" on a S3 Millennium - not a burn, a distinct crack in it. One SP broke the rewind and had to be fixed.A couple of S2's had to have speeds recalibrated - but not bad at all for cameras going 50-60 years of age.
The SP has a pretty full complement of finder, from 28 to 135 - BUT the 35 and 28 are off set and you have to shift your eye to see them. Not a big real though. On the S3 all three finders are shown together - gets bit crowded but it is manageable - and you do get used to it quickly.
The R2s is great for when you need an "on board" meter. I tend to use it when I load cameras with either very slow film or 800 iso + film.
As for durability, very few problems. I have had a shutter curtain"crack" on a S3 Millennium - not a burn, a distinct crack in it. One SP broke the rewind and had to be fixed.A couple of S2's had to have speeds recalibrated - but not bad at all for cameras going 50-60 years of age.
Frontman
Well-known
Sorry, but no Leica ever made comes even close to the reliability of the Nikon S type rangefinders. I have had dozens of each type. I have never had a Leica which has not required service or adjustment, I have never had a Nikon rangfinder which has.
For vintage optics, Leica does not have a big advantage over Nikon, as Leica's older lenses have very fragile coatings, and are prone to haze. Clean examples are hard to find at anything close to a reasonable price.
I have quite a few nice Leicas and Nikons, I prefer the Nikkor 35/1.8 over my 35/2 Summicron, and I think the Sonnar type 50mm or Gauss type Millnium Nikkor are not inferior in any way to Leica's older Summilux, while being quite a bit less expensive.
Leicas tend to fit well in the hand, and many people prefer the location of the shutter button. The M cameras have a better rangefinder patch, but the Nikon's 1-1 finder is quite nice. Another feature of the Nikon is that it can be focused and shot with only the right hand.
The best all-around camera for 35mm and longer lenses is the S3, as it has a built in finder for 35mm and longer lenses. The SP adds a finder for the 28mm lens just to the left of the main finder.
It is hard to go wrong with the Nikon S, they seldom to never require adjustment or repair, and their shutter speeds are remarkably consistent. The native lenses are remarkable for the price, and in places like Japan, the Voigtlander S mount lenses are less expensive than M or L mount types.
There is nothing wrong with selling your old gear, shooting two systems at the same time is a little counter-intuitive, especially with dissimilar cameras like the S and M types.
ChrisLivsey
Veteran
I have been led astray down the Nikon Rangefinder path quite recently after years (let's not count) of Leica and assorted SLRs. This is more difficult over here in the UK as far fewer were imported at the time and importing now outside our EU area is prohibitive in taxes and duty.
I have S3 and SP. The SP arrived because it was priced vey competitively
Over the Leica the 1:1 view is the main advantage in use I find. This comes into it's own with a 50mm, I am natively a 35mm shooter but find myself using the 50s more often with the Nikon especially, as above, because the quality of the glass is superb and a blinding bargain if compared to Leica glass.
The 35/2.5 is the "best buy" in that range being very sharp even wide open. ( This more a contrast effect than sheer resolution, the opposite to the Summar for example which doesn't "look" sharp but is actually resolving very highly masked by low contrast, sorry to wander I've had a test chart session recently)
Any 50 will do I have not seen a bad one so it is choice on ergonomics, the internal mounts can be strange at first, and the "look".
I would vote for the S3 on cost and the viewfinder giving a full 35 view to the edge. The SP smaller viewfinder "auxiliary" for the wides looses the 1:1 which is a major loss, for me.
The rangefinder patch varies a lot between models with no rhyme or reason and the main difference to the Leica is lower contrast and a much less well defined edge to the patch. Many users focus using the Leica as a split image as on on an SLR lining up verticals not using contrast ( they may not know actually how they are focussing) and therefore find the Nikon "poor". If you focus on contrast changes, as I do, I find no issues.
So: S3, 90/100 copies will come with a 50 and the f2 will/should be cheaper and is fine, add a 35/2.5 and either the 105 (a legend) or the 85 (which has a "look" of its own later. The Voigtlander glass is a absolute bargain, the Nokton 50/1.5 ASPH equals the Summicron ASPH, (but keep that quiet please). So for a wider wide look to them as the wider Nikon glass is expensive, ( 21mm) this is because it, in the day, so sold fewer copies and wide design was an art that has advanced notably over the intervening years.
Your "cool" factor will be much higher with a Nikon rangefinder than a Leica
I have S3 and SP. The SP arrived because it was priced vey competitively
Over the Leica the 1:1 view is the main advantage in use I find. This comes into it's own with a 50mm, I am natively a 35mm shooter but find myself using the 50s more often with the Nikon especially, as above, because the quality of the glass is superb and a blinding bargain if compared to Leica glass.
The 35/2.5 is the "best buy" in that range being very sharp even wide open. ( This more a contrast effect than sheer resolution, the opposite to the Summar for example which doesn't "look" sharp but is actually resolving very highly masked by low contrast, sorry to wander I've had a test chart session recently
)Any 50 will do I have not seen a bad one so it is choice on ergonomics, the internal mounts can be strange at first, and the "look".
I would vote for the S3 on cost and the viewfinder giving a full 35 view to the edge. The SP smaller viewfinder "auxiliary" for the wides looses the 1:1 which is a major loss, for me.
The rangefinder patch varies a lot between models with no rhyme or reason and the main difference to the Leica is lower contrast and a much less well defined edge to the patch. Many users focus using the Leica as a split image as on on an SLR lining up verticals not using contrast ( they may not know actually how they are focussing) and therefore find the Nikon "poor". If you focus on contrast changes, as I do, I find no issues.
So: S3, 90/100 copies will come with a 50 and the f2 will/should be cheaper and is fine, add a 35/2.5 and either the 105 (a legend) or the 85 (which has a "look" of its own later. The Voigtlander glass is a absolute bargain, the Nokton 50/1.5 ASPH equals the Summicron ASPH, (but keep that quiet please). So for a wider wide look to them as the wider Nikon glass is expensive, ( 21mm) this is because it, in the day, so sold fewer copies and wide design was an art that has advanced notably over the intervening years.
Your "cool" factor will be much higher with a Nikon rangefinder than a Leica
B-9
Devin Bro
Thanks everyone for your thorough responses!
I've got my heart set on a 1.4 50mm, as f2 is a bit to slow for interiors (Ive made a hobby of bringing my camera/s to the bar/s with me) my X100 struggles a bit even at ISO 3200.
Ive been shooting P3200 Tmax with my snapshot skopar, with limited success.
A fast 50, could give me the speed I want (1/30?) And still give me a bit of "stopping" power.
Is there any note worthy differences in the 1.4 Nikkors?
Aside from cosmetics of course. (Exception of the millennium Gaussian lens)
35/2.5 appears to be a very affordable lens!
Would anyone consider the Contax biogon 35/2.8?
Am I correct in my understanding that any lens wider than 50, will focus correctly on either Contax or Nikon?
I see the 135/3.5 is also a very affordable lens, similiar in price to a Hektor or Elmar in Ltm.
Any good words for the 135?
I've got my heart set on a 1.4 50mm, as f2 is a bit to slow for interiors (Ive made a hobby of bringing my camera/s to the bar/s with me) my X100 struggles a bit even at ISO 3200.
Ive been shooting P3200 Tmax with my snapshot skopar, with limited success.
A fast 50, could give me the speed I want (1/30?) And still give me a bit of "stopping" power.
Is there any note worthy differences in the 1.4 Nikkors?
Aside from cosmetics of course. (Exception of the millennium Gaussian lens)
35/2.5 appears to be a very affordable lens!
Would anyone consider the Contax biogon 35/2.8?
Am I correct in my understanding that any lens wider than 50, will focus correctly on either Contax or Nikon?
I see the 135/3.5 is also a very affordable lens, similiar in price to a Hektor or Elmar in Ltm.
Any good words for the 135?
lonemantis
Well-known
Since you mentioned you haven't held a Nikon RF before, I would highly recommend trying one in person before you decide to unload your whole kit.
The Nikon RFs are very well made, but I find them to be a step backwards from Leica Ms in terms of actual usage. The Nikons are very boxy, and have lots of sharp edges that I found made them pretty uncomfortable to hold for too long.
The RF patch in the Nikons is also a lot weaker and has soft edges, so you can only line up images in the centre of the patch. If I had to shoot a Nikon RF, my first choice would probably be the Bessa!
Anyway, that's not to say that the Nikons are bad cameras or that you shouldn't consider one. The optics are cheap and top-notch quality. It's just always better to try one yourself first before you commit!
The Nikon RFs are very well made, but I find them to be a step backwards from Leica Ms in terms of actual usage. The Nikons are very boxy, and have lots of sharp edges that I found made them pretty uncomfortable to hold for too long.
The RF patch in the Nikons is also a lot weaker and has soft edges, so you can only line up images in the centre of the patch. If I had to shoot a Nikon RF, my first choice would probably be the Bessa!
Anyway, that's not to say that the Nikons are bad cameras or that you shouldn't consider one. The optics are cheap and top-notch quality. It's just always better to try one yourself first before you commit!
furcafe
Veteran
True, but still useable, IMHO. The majority of my shooting is at night or in low light conditions & I haven't had problems using a good condition SP, an S2, S4, or S3 2000 in available darkness. Then again, I can & do occasionally use "Barnack" Leicas & copies (IIIc, etc.) in the same conditions. I would rate the Nikons with a good RF patch somewhere between the OP's IIIf & M4-2, but closer to the M side of the spectrum.
Of course, if low light is your priority the Bessa R2S would be your best RF/VF option if you're shooting in the 50-28mm range. My gripes w/the Bessa are minor & mostly ergonomic: (1) shutter release sits too high, (2) shutters are noisier, & (3) the meter LEDs are bright enough to be visible from the front of the camera.
Also, IIRC, my eye sight was much better when I was 23 than it is now!
Of course, if low light is your priority the Bessa R2S would be your best RF/VF option if you're shooting in the 50-28mm range. My gripes w/the Bessa are minor & mostly ergonomic: (1) shutter release sits too high, (2) shutters are noisier, & (3) the meter LEDs are bright enough to be visible from the front of the camera.
Also, IIRC, my eye sight was much better when I was 23 than it is now!
Stefcuoz
Established
In the past i was a Nikon Rf collector.... now only user, and seller, of the rest of my collection.
My advice.... a good S2, nikon rf best shooter for low price and high quality.
Regards
Steve.
My advice.... a good S2, nikon rf best shooter for low price and high quality.
Regards
Steve.
furcafe
Veteran
The Biogons are fine lenses & will work on the Nikons, but are not optically superior to the 35/2.5 w-Nikkor in my experience (except possibly distortion, but that's not a big issue for my photography) & are more expensive (also heavier).
The 135/3.5 Nikkor-Q is a great Sonnar-type tele.
The 135/3.5 Nikkor-Q is a great Sonnar-type tele.
Corran
Well-known
Personally I have no trouble focusing in light that requires f/2, 1/60, and TMZ pushed to 6400. So in other words, I have no trouble focusing in any light with my SP. It just "snaps" into focus to me, rather than physically seeing the two images coincide.
Highway 61
Revisited
I once used a friend's Leica M6 in a nice yet dark bar, to take "available darkness" photos, and the rangefinder patch flared so much like crazy in front of every light source, that I ended up leaving the camera on the table and continuing shooting with my Rollei 35, because focusing that darn M6 was truly impossible.
This never happened to me with any of my Nikon RF cameras, even if my S3 patch could benefit from a good cleaning of the rear side of its half-mirror prism.
This never happened to me with any of my Nikon RF cameras, even if my S3 patch could benefit from a good cleaning of the rear side of its half-mirror prism.
B-9
Devin Bro
In most situations I find the rangefinder patch in my M4-2 to be useable and accurate, even at night in a bar. I've become a habitual zone focuser, and typically only use a RF patch to confirm focus.
Although zone focus is tricky with any fast 50.
Especially with the 50/1.2 Canon, I won't scare easily!
Thanks again everyone for your continued response!
Although zone focus is tricky with any fast 50.
Especially with the 50/1.2 Canon, I won't scare easily!
Thanks again everyone for your continued response!
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
I think the M6 is not the best example of a Leica finder -- the flare, when present, is real and annoying. But any other of the Ms doesn't have the problem. Overall, I think the M viewfinder/rangefinder, with framelines and parallax correction, is much better to use than that of the Nikons.
B-9
Devin Bro
Out of curiousity, do any of the older Nikon F Viewfinder accessories work on the S3?
Some older Plain Prisms had the square eyepiece, and I own a eyepiece magnifier attachment leftover from my days using/collecting NKJ F's, that would be great if it would carry over.
Are there any eyecups available? Or any that have been found to fit (possibly from another camera system?
I've also been looking into silly add on grips, nothing to be found.
Some older Plain Prisms had the square eyepiece, and I own a eyepiece magnifier attachment leftover from my days using/collecting NKJ F's, that would be great if it would carry over.
Are there any eyecups available? Or any that have been found to fit (possibly from another camera system?
I've also been looking into silly add on grips, nothing to be found.