Nikon SM 50 f/1.4 vs. Nokton f/1.5

[thpook]

I have found a Nikon 50 f/1.4 in excellent condition for a nice price. I've been thinking about getting a Nokton for a while, and now I'm in doubt.

Does anyone have any experience with the nikon lens? I have searched for photos from the 50 f/1.4, but I haven't found that many, and certainly not enough to form any sort of concrete feel for the lens' "look". Is the SM version the same optical formula as the Nikon mount one?

And because there isn't much text on the page, 2 recent photos taken with my M6 and 40mm Summicron. Both taken on tri-x @ 1600, developed in Diafine.

 

[awilder]

Unless your're into collecting fast 50's, I'd just keep the Nikkor if the condition is very nice. From a collectors standpoint it's more valuable, it has better bokeh and closer focus, which BTW, is where the 50/1.4 Nikkor is optimised as per Dante Stella. Technically the Nokton will be better stopped down than the Nikkor due to it's modern computer design with aspherics and all.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

This thread has a number of Nikkor 5cm F1.4 (Sonnar formula) shots, most wide-open. The LTM and S-mount version have the same formula up to 1964. At that point a reformulated F1.4 lens was released for the S3 Olympic, and was the same formula as the Canon 50mm F1.2 and F0.95 lens. Those are rare, bigger, and better. It is the basis for the lens released in 2000 for the S3-2000. My LTM nikkor is on the Canon Vt now.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9602

 

[VinceC]

There have been one or two discussions, with posted photos, of the Nikkor 5cm over in the Nikon forum. In addition, my gallery shows some pictures I took when I spent a recent weekend shooting the lens exclusively wide open at f/1.4.

The SM has the same optical formula as the Nikon RF version. It's a magnificent lens but does have a few characteristics that show its age. It's true that it performs extremely well wide open and close. There is some strong vignetting when focused to the middle distance and far distance while wide open. It also can have some "glowing" highlights common to a single-coated lens. Also, when a bright point source of light is in the frame, it can show a "sonnar ring", kind of a halo. It is best to shoot this lens with a hood -- I've always used a small collapsible rubber/hood combo made by B+W.

This really is a great lens. It established Nikon's reputation back in the early 1950s. Bokeh is beautiful when wide open. But when stopped down around 2.8 and 4, its most common shooting aperatures, it can have a harsh doubled out-of-focus effect. I believe this has to do with how the lens was optimized for sharpness. Some people find this distracting, others don't.

Good luck,

 

[thpook]

This thread has a number of Nikkor 5cm F1.4 (Sonnar formula) shots, most wide-open. The LTM and S-mount version have the same formula up to 1964. At that point a reformulated F1.4 lens was released for the S3 Olympic, and was the same formula as the Canon 50mm F1.2 and F0.95 lens. Those are rare, bigger, and better. It is the basis for the lens released in 2000 for the S3-2000. My LTM nikkor is on the Canon Vt now.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9602

The fact that it's optimized to be a wide open, close focus lens sells me on it I think. I'm putting together (slowly) a low light kit. I have the voigtlander ultron (and I'll know how I like it after I develop a couple of rolls), and it's nice to shoot with. I have a konica M-Hexanon 50mm, but I'd like something a bit faster for my longer lenses. Any increase in speed is welcome. I'd be shooting it mostly wide open, and close up and either in really contrasty bar lighting or in low subdued lighting.

It's not really a matter of which lens is better, as I know that the Nokton is a great lens, it's really a matter of which is more convenient. The Nikon will be cash and carry, and a Nokton will be bought from cameraquest and shipped to denmark. After tax and shipping, the prices are about the same.

So, the fact that it isn't a horrible dog of a lens makes the decision easier.

Thanks for the help.

 

[awilder]

Question for Brian Sweeney. How certain are you that the redesign of the 50/1.4 Nikkor with the S3 is similar to the Canon 50/1.2 or 0.95? I've always been curious about that design but Rotelli(?) couldn't confirm the layout.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The 1965 book by Neblette "Photographic Lenses" lists them as having the same formula.

See "T".
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3987

Also note "I", the fast Sonnar's. The earlier Nikkor 5cm F1.4 is listed there.

That is the only reference that I have on it, not too many books like this one. The Nikkor 5.8cm F1.4 of the day is listed separately. The later 50mm F1.4 SLR lens is a much different formula.

 

[furcafe]

Per the thread Brian cited, I'm skeptical that the Nikkon is really more optimized for wide-open & up-close shooting than any other fast 50mm of its era (or since). Aside from the collectibility/value issues raised by awilder, I'll just note that there are a few ergonomic/mechanical factors to consider: (1) the Cosina Nokton is bigger, but lighter than the Nikkor; (2) the Nokton uses more easily found 52mm-thread filters (as opposed to the 43mm thread on the Nikkor); & (3) your M6 will not actually focus the Nikkor @ its closest focus distances (scale only).

The fact that it's optimized to be a wide open, close focus lens sells me on it I think. I'm putting together (slowly) a low light kit. I have the voigtlander ultron (and I'll know how I like it after I develop a couple of rolls), and it's nice to shoot with. I have a konica M-Hexanon 50mm, but I'd like something a bit faster for my longer lenses. Any increase in speed is welcome. I'd be shooting it mostly wide open, and close up and either in really contrasty bar lighting or in low subdued lighting.

It's not really a matter of which lens is better, as I know that the Nokton is a great lens, it's really a matter of which is more convenient. The Nikon will be cash and carry, and a Nokton will be bought from cameraquest and shipped to denmark. After tax and shipping, the prices are about the same.

So, the fact that it isn't a horrible dog of a lens makes the decision easier.

Thanks for the help.

 

[alansoon]

thpook: For what it's worth, I think you already have excellent photographs and a fabulous eye for tones. I can't imagine how a Nikon SM or a Nokton would improve it, IMHO.

 

[Peter Klein]

I've owned both lenses. I loved the Nikkor 50/1.4 until I got the Nokton. While the Nikkor has some nostalgia value, the Nokton is just a better lens. I don't know how well Web jpegs will show this, but here's a few samples.

The Nikkor is quite sharp in the center wide-open, but it is low contrast (lower than comparable Canon lenses). It does have that classic old-school look with a Sonnar flavor. The Nokton can sometimes give harsh edges on out-of-focus highlights, but the level of detail it gives wide-open is well worth it.

Here's a photo with the Nikkor, wide open (on slow film in good window light, so with a fast shutter speed):
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/temp/marianne.jpg

At medium apertures:
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/oldpics/bluebeach.htm
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/oldpics/bighorn_bw.htm

And here is the Nikkor in low light:
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/currentpics/paula_harpo.htm
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/currentpics/claire_surreal.htm

Here's the Nokton, stopped down a bit. The Nikkor doesn't get quite this good off-center:
http://gallery.leica-users.org/Rachel-Scott/1_6231_36
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/family/5-20NaomiEliZzz.htm
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/family/2-34Antionette.htm

And in low light:
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/musicians/2-23TerezinBowsWeb.jpg
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/lhsa2002/36rabiner.htm
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/lhsa2002/30ted.htm (1/8 second hand held)
http://users.2alpha.com/~pklein/family/4-31ScottRachel.jpg
http://gallery.leica-users.org/album186/1_01RabsDinner

Hope this is useful.

--Peter

 

[furcafe]

My experience is similar to Peter's, but as someone who really likes old-school lenses, I wouldn't say that the Nokton is unequivocally "better." I think it depends on what kind of look you're going for.

FWIW, here is 1 of my Cosina Voigtlander 50/1.5 Nokton examples:

http://static.flickr.com/29/61769915_158fad049f_o.jpg

(more here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/tags/cosinavoigtlander5015nokton/)

And here is a similar 50/1.4 Nikkor-S example:

http://static.flickr.com/15/19825196_184b3e5f7f_o.jpg

(more here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/tags/nipponkogaku5cm14nikkorsltmc195356/ & here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/tags/nipponkogaku5cm14nikkorschromec195457/ & here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/furcafe/tags/nipponkogaku5cm14nikkorsblackc195864/)

 

[Graybeard]

I use both lenses. The Nokton is razor sharp, even wide open; the apparent performance is probably more limited by my ability to hold the camera steady at slow speeds than by its optics. The Nikkor is also a fine performer but is a from an earlier generation of optical design. I like the images produced by both.

It is worth mentioning that the Nokton is a physically large bulky lens. The Nikkor is considerably smaller than the Nokton and also smaller than the 50mm/1.4 Canon in LTM. The Nokton rather overwhelms a Barnack Leica and I prefer to use the Nikkor on screw mount Leica.