No More Kiev PRs

R

ruben

Guest
In a recent exchange of emails, in which a friend suggested me the possibility of going Kiev, I resumed my viewpoint taking into account the last discussions we have been having lately.

Therefore I wrote:

As for the Kievs and Contaxes, after all the recent
discussions about their viability, some members have touched
their weak sides, which I will formulate as follows:

1) Both can render the highest quality in manual focusing
available rangefinders, BUT

2) High quality CLA is a must. In my opinion the higher
quality CLA is the one each of us can give at home. Yet you
may be lucky with Oleg Khlayavin, and regarding him I would
offer him an extra payment for longer-time attention.

3) Learning Kiev/Contax CLA is requests patience in
microscopic screws un-screwing and re-screing.

4) CLA-ing at home Kiev/Contax is some 50 hours work.

5) After your camera is ready, you definitely will need a
period of full concentration in it, to become dexterous, and
receive back the honey - you have worked for so extensively

6) The Honey definitely exists.

I think this is a fair representation, and whenever you need
me I will be glad to detail anything I know, or plainly
state: this I don't know



All these is right, but also wrong. Our friend John (giovatony) has been relentlessly discussing my former arguments, from which the above quotation is a kind of compromise. I have been such a good Kiev propagandist that very recently a member had to climb to the Hexar RF as a possible challenger....:)

I think John is basically right in what he is saying between the lines, and it took me quite long time to grasp. My perception of what John is saying between the lines is that I have been taking a kind of extreme, or exxagerated, or hardcore, approach.

What about the folk that wants to have a Kiev and not be enslaved with the lots of issues I have taken a clear stance about ?

I have not been suggesting too many options after all, and they are true from the machine needs viewpoint, but untrue, or rather hard, from the humans point of view that are going to use the machine.
Humans come first.

So what am I saying now ?
What am I saying to those folks who ask if to buy a Kiev or not ?
What am I saying them towards the problems I suspect they will find ?

I think I will change my approach. If you have a question I know its answer, I will try to help.

But I will stop recommending great investments of time and money. I will let the camera do the job. In the long run after you have been hitched by the Kievs, you can have it as a side camera, or may be ignited into flames some time afterwards.

So let's the camera speak for itself along time. After all no one pushed me, but the camera itself.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Hi Ruben,
There`s nothing wrong with your enthusiastic affection for the Kievs or your approach. I think it`s great.
John
 
Hi Ruben - one of the reasons I look at the kiev chats is to read your evangelising - at times you make me think that maybe I would like one so please dont stop.
todah raba
Nathan
 
Maybe i got lucky, but in my 200-something camera collection, out of all the FEDs, Zorkis, Lomos, Zenits, etc... - Kievs (rangefinders -I have about 12 of them) are the only ones that produce superb and consistent results without any CLA... which I can't really say the same about the other "brands".... all Kievs were purchased from various sources in US, UK, Ukraine and Russia...

Vlad.
 
Hi folks,
It is not my intention at all to stop posting about the Kievs. Just on the great CLA issue I will be less noisy. Let's see how this unfolds. For example in this same thread, our friend Vlad is saying his Kievs are the only ones consistenly delivering accurately results, without CLA.

We had to lock Vlad and Zorkikat in a locked room:)

And I wonder if he ever has hold in his handsa high quality CLA-ed Kiev. Since he owns several hundred Soviet cameras I assume the absolute amount of Kiev shots is relative, and the absolut amount of shots with a single Kiev, even smaller. In that case the CLA is rather an issue of tactile pleasure.

Altough due to his assertions, here I have to warn the lonenly RFF member living up there in the hills, that if he is going to concentrate in Kiev shooting, the CLA issue is not just a tactile pleasure for him. Old grease (it doesn't matter if it is mixed with new oil) and undistensioned curtain springs will shorten the life expectation of the ribbons.

And thie given for granted RF adjustment, frame spacing, and other issues are already solved.

Yet, you can deliberatedly decide, you will perform home or paid CLA once your camera ribbons are broken.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Ruben, your humility, like your evangelizing and your love of Kievs, knows no limits. You sir are a welcomed diversion from the trials and tribulations of my daily life. I may not respond to every post you make, but I do read them. Sometimes I come to your defense. Other times I do not for fear of making the situation worse. Keep preaching to the unenlightened masses on the wonders of Kiev-ness. Do not despair my friend as while we may not be vocal about, there are many here that share your views. I am reminded of a dark time in the past when one lonely island held out against great odds and what their great leader said at the time

"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and ocean. We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!"




:D
 
Hi TV,
I find my title for the thread has been misleading. It should have been, if more accurately, "no more PRs for Kiev CLA". As I said in my post #6 here

Cheer,
Ruben
 
Ruben,

Keep it up. I had always thought that if I ever got an FSU, it would be a Kiev, but wasn't really enthused about it until I started following your posts. They pushed over the edge. I seem to have gotten lucky on mine, with only that minor light leak problem which you correctly diagnosed. The darn things just grow on one. I am not giving up my Fujicas, but I like the Kiev more and more.

Yep, keep it up.
 
Ok, I will try to explain myself again, but in different terms.

I am a bit, how to say, desperate?, faint hearted?, perhaps deceptioned is the best word if it exists in English as in Spanish, for a single thing. I cannot convince you to make a serious CLA for your Kievs.

And I understand that it is quite ambitious to push you trough words and promises. The camera must lead you there.

I have bought a great Kiev IIa from Fedka once upon a time, and another great Kiev 4a from Rusfoto, not serviced but seeming to have been maintained as new from the factory.

But an indepht cleaning and lubrication, and distensioning, gives you a Kiev that none of the above can match. And I don't know how to transmit this message.

So, I think it will be appropriate to leave the cameras to do the job, once your spirity is up to it.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
f2eyelevel said:
You might first want to learn how to actually overhaul a Kiev/Contax shutter, which is, performing the ribbons replacement operation with either original Arsenal ribbon, or Aki Asahi silk ribbon, which works super in either the Contax or the Kiev shutter. Better to fully master the "how to" before trying to convince others to do it themselves.

...........
Click to expand...

You sound quite personally hostlyle, and I do not know why, unless you transport bad feelings from thread to thread. I understand your feelings at the Contax/Kiev thead, but I don't think they should be kept forever.

Most of the friends reading from time to time this subforum, have heard me more than once disclaiming deep expertize in the Kievs. I have rounded my limits of knowledge at the stage of shutter synchronization, an issue I have not entered yet.

I am happy you do claim knowledge. Yet this is not the issue at all eyelevel. The real issue is how much of your time you are ready to dedicate to your fellow RFF members to make your knowledge accessible to those who don't have it, including me. And here, unless for attacking from time to time, your absence have been till now very notorious.

I have been "noisy", true. But it has been always on behalf of the members, telling them folks you have a great camera, study it, improve it.

Had you been more present in generously comparting your knowledge, you may have shortened the way for me too. Since you has not, kindly let me disagree with your opening abovequoted sentence about ribbons replacement.
It will be below my standards to have to claim knowledge here or disclaim it, but I disagree that ribbons exchange, if unbroken, is the main of the shutter CLA.

Unbroken ribbons should be examined, and exchanged or not, accordingly. This, because the ribbons exchange involves several surrounding delicate issues, and on the other hand healthy ribbons, within a well CLA-ed camera will last for long. A CLA-ed camera, as far as my opinion goes, is a highly smooth one.

Un-CLA-ed cameras, in general terms, will rather shorten the ribbons life for the contrary reason, and it doesn't matter if they are from Aki or from the NASA. The unsmoothness of the gears will provoke a lot of stress on the ribbons.

Any way eyelevel, it is my hope you take this opportunity to show how wrong I am in the technical sides, but kindly do it in a detailed way, that all friends will be able to follow. Cameras and knowledge are for all, not for elites of any kind.

Cheers,
Ruben

Cheers
 
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I am not clear if you are a part time fixer which I may be hurting his bussiness here, or just a member looking for a fight.

I am no partner for such a fight, but I can be a great partner for helping to popularize Kiev knowledge. This requires you to frequent the forum and try to explain intricate issues at an accessible language.

With folks having Kiev questions, I try my best to explain what I know, and clearly state what I do not know. People here do know me. I am not anonymous, nor I delete my posts once a year to hide secrets.

With folks claiming Contax/Kiev knowledge - the conoussieurs - I have a single kind of dialogue: how to best popularize such a knowledge on behalf of all those in need of it. In this latter path you don't earn money but what even money cannot buy: friendships, appreciation and satysfaction.

It is up to you to choose. My hand is extended.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS,
Of course no one ever doubted Zeiss designed optics are fantastic.
 
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Take heart Ruben, I love reading your posts, shame some people seem to take exception to them or misread your intentions. Sad
 
Ruben,

I would say as a hard-core Kiev user you are absolutely right... as a collector only, I've just run a single roll of film through each of my Kievs and my guess is that whoever I got it from (usually reputable source like Fedka, Alex, Asterliks, hero4g or some other known dealers) probably made sure these camera were in resale condition, so the first roll would probably look good..

If I would've kept using them and as they sit on my shelf semi-excercised, of course they would require a occasional CLA...

I am also not a capricious user, all I care about that the camera does not jam, most speeds works more or less accurately and the developed results look good, so I'm sure a real user would find a small things wrong with some of these that will bug them as they would use these cameras over and over again, so CLA would be of course desirable...

Just my two kopeks :)...

Vlad.
 
f2eyelevel said:
...............Any reasonable people with basic skills, good tools, new silk ribbons in stock, and lots of patience, wanting to overhaul a prewar Contax or Kiev camera, must read both Russ Pinchbeck's and Rick Oleson's webpages, plus the Maizenberg book eventually.
............
Click to expand...


Here we have a point of great importance, with which I would like to address Kiev users with no great experience in Kiev dissassemble, as well as answer eyelevel, just on this highly important point.

I have maintained several prived discussions wiht Russ Pinchbeck, critizicing him for his superb website not being enough accessible to the newbie. Some people have complained about it here, one the past, over RFF pages. As usual, and sorry folks but duty calls, whenever I mention Russ I repeat that without HIS KSS, I would never have known what I know today. Russ website has been my basic menthor.

But as I said in the past, being myself not a specially tech minded person, it took me a lot of time and a lot of effort to grasp much of the KSS. And there is a broad layer of people in my situation, wayting off sides.

We all have seen along RFF pages, young tech advanced minds, like Spyderman, Valkyr, Physiognomy, to mention just some examples, with quick grasp for tech issues. For these kind of folks the KSS is all they need.

But it will be of high importance for all the other Kiev friends if we could enjoy of a kind of "KSS FOR DUMMIES", leading us from zero to the basic disassembly and CLA I am "preaching" for like a parrochial priest, too much indeed.

This is for me the core of my intentions in this thread. Being unable to provide that KSS FOR DUMMIES, the real tool left to me is the Kiev appeal itself. Being my hope this appeal will push other minds like mine, in the same way:
dealing with the KSS with a lot of patience, and advancing by our own pace.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS,
Concerning f2eyelevel, and his evasive answer to my question if he is a part time fixer i.e. taking money for his part time fixing work, I conclude he is indeed, and therefore it is obvious that any folk like me trying to popularize Kiev knowledge is a bussiness obstacle, making our too long detour with him at this thead, quite clear.
Being a part time or full time fixer is no shame at all. But targeting me as an obstacle for this reason, is rather a narrow minded approach.

Of course, eyelevel, is most kindly invited to prove me wrong by simply stating he has never took money for any repairing/fixing/overhauling camera job, done instead out of his great Contax/Kiev sensible heart.
 
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I could repeat once again my very-sharp-terms question at the end of my post #18, that you again have evaded it under the word "hobby", but here I stop. You are not under trial here, and on the other hand you have got already many bumps, due to entering a dark tunnel.

Kindly be of help to the folks at RFF in need of your apparent knowledge and you will discover a lot of fun, grace of life, etc.

I concede you the last word, but this is my last addressing to you at this thread, distracting from the important issues affecting most of us.

I don't remain with hard feelings, and perhaps we may have good exchanges in the future. Who knows.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
Well, on the positive side, how many of us ever see this degree of passion amongst users of digital cameras? We are very committed to our cameras and our views. Let's just not go overboard. We're all entitled to our own opinions. (Of course only MINE are worth anything!) :D

Go in Peace.
 
januaryman said:
Well, on the positive side, how many of us ever see this degree of passion amongst users of digital cameras? We are very committed to our cameras and our views. Let's just not go overboard. We're all entitled to our own opinions. (Of course only MINE are worth anything!) :D

Go in Peace.
Click to expand...

Heh,heh,heh. Tune into any brand of digital slr forum on the Dpreview camera site and you can read the millions of threads , (hundreds every day) from the digital freaks who compare minutia over and over with each new model.
We had all ought to be thankful in the sense that we have to love and cherish what camera we have because nothing else is coming down the pike to take it`s place with regards to an upgrade.
John
 
Back to the issues at the start of the thread, I do think there is a need of a kind of "KSS for dummies.

What is a dummy in this context ?
- It is an intelligent person like me.
- It is a person that is new to camera disassembly where he/she doesn't find his best abilities like I was some years ago.
- It is a person that perhaps has natural tech abilities for the job, but lacks the time to do it in a long process of search and experimenting.

Now what exactly do I mean when I say "KSS for dummies" ? I find now this definition quite unaccurate. There is no need to remake the KSS.

But definitely there is a need for the folk who has never went into camera disassembly, of a kind of easy language tutorial, enabling him to CLA his newly purchased Kiev.
This CLA is to be done in a single stage, in which the major Kiev issues will be addressed. This issues, to my opinion, are:

- Rangefinding adjusting to high accuracy
- light leaks
- Shutter cleaning and lubrication
- Helical mount cleaning and lubrication
- Ribons examination and/or exchange
- Distensioning of the shutter curtains
- Frame spacing (adjustment of the take up spool fork)

Now, kindly take note that ideally all these are to be performed in a single tour, but within the time each one finds at comfort.

It is through this process that we can transform a $70 Kiev into a high quality camera worth of several hundred dollars.

But let's forget about the money equation. I am talking about a really really soft camera surpassing in this regard my Oly slr 4Ti for example. Having a Kiev that it is not only a pleasure to look at, but a pleasure to move its controls. A tactile pleasure very much forgotten by the camera industry.

I am talking as well about a Kiev enabling us to make the most from its small focusing wheel and its focusing viewfinder.

And I am talking, for those who care about it, about an amazingly unaudible shutter.

It is my strong belief that with the right tutorial, a person who has never opened a camera may reach this Superb Kiev. But he needs the right tool: the fitting tutorial.

Preparing such tutorial involves upon my appreciation from the time i wanted to write it an extraordinary amount of work. As you can easily understand, speaking with people who didn't previously open cameras requires more photos, more explanations, more warnings ("Take care not to...").

Cheers,
Ruben
 
f2eyelevel said:
Here is the actual reason for which this shutter must not be overtensioned, and thus, deeply cleaned from its old lubricant and relubed with modern thin oil from Nye or Moebius at the points where it must be, not speaking of white Aero grease to be applied on the winding mechanism gears below the speeds selector unit.

The ribbons do not get worn because of any kind of shutter overtension but just because of the friction they have to endure when they slip through the clutch located at the top of the 1st curtain. They receive this wear on every shot at this very point, whichever the smoothness of the shutter geartrains might be. Anyone having looked at a prewar Contax - Kiev shutter with broken ribbons may have noticed that the breakage point is always located at about 1cm- 1.5cm below the upper stitching which links the upper ribbon loop to the 2nd curtain.

Ah, FYI some folks actually tried Mylar NASA 3.0mm ribbons in a prewar Contax shutter. But they didn't work out, so let me kindly shorten your way by kindly advising you not to try them, either.

Nothing more to add.
Click to expand...

Finally, real information which a real Kiev CLA'er can appreciate! :D

F2eyelevels' observations about ribbon wear agrees with what I found. The break in the broken shutter ribbons were always about 1-1.5 cm below the stitching of the upper blind. One other peculiarity is that its the right (side next to the film supply chamber) ribbon which always broke first.

After looking at how the works purr with a suitable ribbon in place, I would also agree wilth F2eyelevel's finding that overtensioning won't directly cause the ribbon to wear more quickly. Whilst they may break because of overtensioning, it would only be because the old ribbons already have strain on them, and cause them to break where the wear is most. A new ribbon would not likely break from over tensioning. Too high a tension will
just make the winding knob harder to turn and make the shutter fire not only with less accuracy, but also with more noise.


The AA ribbons work rather well since they are thinner. Thinner means less coils of ribbon going around the shafts of the spring-loaded roller. With thinner ribbons, the tensioning need not be so high since the softer, thinner ribbons will require less power to be pulled to and fro. Lower tension means lower noise, though I would not readily conclude that the Kiev RF have the quietest shutters around. Some of the Kiev are quiet, but the zipping sound which they make do not make them any less audible than other the other 'quiet shutters'.
 
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