No pictures on first roll of 120 film:-(

[Demodres]

Hi RFF..

Today I picked up the developed film and scans from my first roll of 120 film. Unfortunately and to my great disappointment are there no pictures on the film, which is completely empty with no signs of exposures.:bang:

It´s a Kodak Tmax 400 B/W film shoot on a Mamiya 645 Super, and I am now trying to identify the error, whch I hope you can help me with.


1) I recently bought the camera and it seems fully functional so I do not suspect the camera to have caused the error. The dark slide was removed on all picture. I have checked the manual and youtubes clips and I have inserted the film correctly.

2) The film was exposed to x-rays before the film was opened and used the camera..but can it cause so much damage on the film?

3) When I removed the exposed film from the camera, I didn´t manage to keep the film 100% tight on the roll, which may have caused some light exposure to the film..however, if this is the cause, I assume that it will only affect the last frames..?

4) Maybe the "lab" messed up the film. It´s developed in Hanoi, Vietnam, and the lab seems rather un-professional and I don´t think they develop many films and most definitely not 120 BW film..will there be signs of exposures on the film if the lab messed up the development?

I was rather disappointed when I discovered the this issue, and I hope you can help me to identify the problem, as I really looking forward to discover the medium format..

Best, Andreas

 

[Vickko]

um, any chance you loaded it backwards, with the paper facing the lens?

That's my first guess.

 

[gilpen123]

Did the spool catch the film? When you wound the shutter did you notice the rewind lever turning?

 

[Bill Clark]

Suggest make sure you are loading the film properly.

I have the 645E and with that the dark/black side of the paper is shown when setting up not the side with the yellow color (Kodak). That way when you get things set, close the film back, wind, then the film will be on the side for exposure.

I've visited with a couple of folks who loaded it the incorrect way and had the same outcome as you have experienced.

Hope this helps you!

 

[Vickko]

Also, what was the appearance of the negative?
Clear - ie not even exposed,
Black - all exposed fully to light?

 

[johannielscom]

From reading this, if you are absolutely certain about points 1), 2) and 3), only point 4) remains, lab error...


Is the shutter actually opening and closing? The 645 Super is battery-powered, with an in-lens leaf shutter, right? No sticky shutter, never opening?

X-rays do not have noticeable effect on film unless it was scanned multiple times with strong scanners (checked-in luggage). Even if there was any effect, an image should remain. At least on some frames more towards the end or beginning of the film.

Light leaks when removing film from the roll should definitely expose some film and a light leak should be totally dark on the roll and totally light on the scan or print.

Stupid mode on: you did not load the film backwards and expose the backing paper, leaving the film unexposed? Ask me why I want to check this... 😱😱

 

[OddE]

My money would be on the lab C41-processing it.

That would lead to you receiving a lovely strip of... ...nothing.

 

[MISH]

Sounds like you do not have overwhelming confidence in the lab. If it was run through a C41 process it will take all the emulsion off leaving nothing but clear base. If it was operator error of some sort such as loading the film backwards you will still have frame numbers and the Kodak name along the edges.

 

[Giant Ginkgo]

My first thought is that you somehow loaded the film with the backing side towards the shutter, I always find loading my Mamiya 645e to be pretty counter-intuitive, since it feels like the film goes in backwards compared to my Mamiya 6 and other film cameras. When I don't shoot with the camera for a while, it makes me feel like I'm loading it wrong!

Have you tested the camera without film in it? If you take a long exposure, can you see that the shutter is up, and the film pressure plate is visible?

It is pretty unlikely that X-rays completely ruined the film, but I have heard that newer machines can be too powerful, hopefully it wasn't in your checked in luggage.

Kodak's page on X-Ray machines, with examples.

When you took the film out, it is very unlikely that you'd lose anything beyond what was at the end of the roll if it was loose. There might be some minor edge leaks, but it shouldn't be possible for it to get beyond the edges to the center.

I'd try shooting another roll, and see what happens.

 

[johannielscom]

Sounds like you do not have overwhelming confidence in the lab. If it was run through a C41 process it will take all the emulsion off leaving nothing but clear base. If it was operator error of some sort such as loading the film backwards you will still have frame numbers and the Kodak name along the edges.

Really? Didn't know that🙄

That spells it then, if it's totally blank the lab messed it up...

 

[Demodres]

um, any chance you loaded it backwards, with the paper facing the lens?

That's my first guess.

Suggest make sure you are loading the film properly.

I have the 645E and with that the dark/black side of the paper is shown when setting up not the side with the yellow color (Kodak). That way when you get things set, close the film back, wind, then the film will be on the side for exposure.

I've visited with a couple of folks who loaded it the incorrect way and had the same outcome as you have experienced.

Hope this helps you!

Also, what was the appearance of the negative?
Clear - ie not even exposed,
Black - all exposed fully to light?

Hi Vickko and Bill Clark..thanks for your fast and constructive advice..hmm, I might suspect that I have inserted the film inproperly even though i followed the manual quite carefully..

I have a other roll in the back at the moment which is inserted with the same method..hmm:bang:

The film is completely clear and thereby not exposed, which may add a argument to this human error...

 

[Demodres]

Did the spool catch the film? When you wound the shutter did you notice the rewind lever turning?

Yes it did and the film was correctly placed on the lower spoll when it was done..by this, I assume that the spool has catch the film correctly..

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Really? Didn't know that🙄

Yeah, the bleach step in the C-41 process eats away the silver, Johan...thought you knew that 😉

My lab hasn't messed this up so far *knocks on wood*

 

[Demodres]

Sounds like you do not have overwhelming confidence in the lab. If it was run through a C41 process it will take all the emulsion off leaving nothing but clear base. If it was operator error of some sort such as loading the film backwards you will still have frame numbers and the Kodak name along the edges.

Thank you MISH!! The framenumbers and Kodak name is still visable on a perfectly clear film..hmm, I guess this add to the argument that I´m the guilty one for the wasted film...damm it😡

But hey, if the problem is my lack of skills to load the Mamiya, then it´s not the my new and wonderful camera or lab, and I still have plenty of other films to shoot..😀

 

[Demodres]

From reading this, if you are absolutely certain about points 1), 2) and 3), only point 4) remains, lab error...


Is the shutter actually opening and closing? The 645 Super is battery-powered, with an in-lens leaf shutter, right? No sticky shutter, never opening?

X-rays do not have noticeable effect on film unless it was scanned multiple times with strong scanners (checked-in luggage). Even if there was any effect, an image should remain. At least on some frames more towards the end or beginning of the film.

Light leaks when removing film from the roll should definitely expose some film and a light leak should be totally dark on the roll and totally light on the scan or print.

Stupid mode on: you did not load the film backwards and expose the backing paper, leaving the film unexposed? Ask me why I want to check this... 😱😱

My first thought is that you somehow loaded the film with the backing side towards the shutter, I always find loading my Mamiya 645e to be pretty counter-intuitive, since it feels like the film goes in backwards compared to my Mamiya 6 and other film cameras. When I don't shoot with the camera for a while, it makes me feel like I'm loading it wrong!

Have you tested the camera without film in it? If you take a long exposure, can you see that the shutter is up, and the film pressure plate is visible?

It is pretty unlikely that X-rays completely ruined the film, but I have heard that newer machines can be too powerful, hopefully it wasn't in your checked in luggage.

Kodak's page on X-Ray machines, with examples.

When you took the film out, it is very unlikely that you'd lose anything beyond what was at the end of the roll if it was loose. There might be some minor edge leaks, but it shouldn't be possible for it to get beyond the edges to the center.

I'd try shooting another roll, and see what happens.

Thanks buzzardkid and Giant Ginkgo..I will try with a other film and insert it backwards/reverse from the present position..and sorry to the lab in Hanoi if I am the weakest link😉

 

[Demodres]

Just a thought on how to verify the correct direction of the film..The "start line" was visable and upward on the film and holder..would this have been possible if the film was loaded backwards?

 

[sevo]

Just a thought on how to verify the correct direction of the film..The "start line" was visable and upward on the film and holder..would this have been possible if the film was loaded backwards?

Dangerous test as the start line is more or less visible either way (it would only be hidden if you unwrapped and reverse-wrapped the film).

The film goes past the pressure plate with the film/black side facing out towards the camera and its print/colour side to the pressure plate.

By the way, a copy of the manual is here: http://www.butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_m645_super/mamiya_m645_super.htm

 

[Noll]

My money would be on the lab C41-processing it.

That would lead to you receiving a lovely strip of... ...nothing.

This exact thing happened to me. Dropped off 2 rolls, asked if they did BW. "yep!" they said, and developed it into oblivion they did...

 

[shadowfox]

Don't rule out camera malfunction until you can verify by looking directly through the camera and actually see light coming in to the film plane when you trip the shutter.

If I'm not mistaken your camera has in-body shutter, correct? so take out the lens and see from the front, if the shutter is moving at all.

This is sometimes hard to do because some cameras have a small latch that you have to push to allow this.

 

[FrankS]

I suggest that you sacrifice the roll of film that's in the camera now that was loaded the same way as the first that came back blank. Open up the camera back to confirm the paper backing is not facing the lens.