Nokton 40mm f/1.4 and Back Focusing on the M8

[ROOOO]

Unfortunately, my first day of shooting with the M8 was not to be. The CV Nokton is back focusing and throwing my shots out of focus. I know some other people experienced similar problems with this lens. What were your solutions? Did you return your lens? Did you have the lens and camera serviced and calibrated together. Any information is much appreciated. (For reference, I still need to see if I can isolate the problem to either the camera or the lens, if that's possible, since I only have the one lens right now.)

Thanks!

 

[eleskin]

I have this lens, and I may have a similar problem. In fact, my Noctilux is more on focus than this thing is!!!

Here is the sad part: I hardly use it!!! I thought it would be great for speed and would be sharp (not Summicron Sharp - that is unrealistic-, but sharp).

Not to be! I am more impressed with the 15mm Super Wide Heliar than this lens.

If I had to buy again, maybe the 50mm Nokton (f1.5 version) would have been a better choice. I hear it is sharp as hell, essentially a poor mans 50mm Summilux.

Where did you buy the lens? If it is Cameraquest, talk to Stephen Gandy, I am sure he will resolve it. Cal him even if you bought somewhere else. If you still have the problem, sell it on ebay, and for the same money, get the 50mm Nokton f1.5! If you want the 40mm focal length and are short on cash, try the 40mm Summicron or the Minolta Rokkor 40mm for the CLE. Very sharp and cheap!

I must admit, for low light, nothing has beat the Noctilux, but that cost me an arm and leg (I wanted one for 20 years, and since I am now in my mid 40's, I realized getting older is happening faster, and I figured why wait. Look at it this way, if you buy a Leica lens (used) you are esentially converting money into an object that holds value. YOu didnt loose anything, just turned your money into another thing that is worth soething. Probably a better strategy with the Dollar tanking!

 

[Kevin]

I have given up trying to use this lens on my R-D1 because of this very problem. Instead I use it on one of my Minolta CLE rangefinders and use the Minolta Rokkor 40mm on my R-D1.

I suggest you find another 35mm to 40mm lens to use on your M8.

 

[jmkelly]

When I had my 40/1.4 Nokton I shot it on: Bessa R3A, Zeiss Ikon, Hexar RF, and Leica M6 and M3 without a single back-focus shot. The 40/1.4 Nokton does not have a reputation for backfocus issues. How many more threads are we going to see along the lines of "My such-and-such lens backfocuses on my digital Leica"? Gentlemen, not to be argumentative, or to belabor the obvious, but the problem is with your camera. If you are shooting your lens only on your digital Leica, why not just have the lens adjusted to focus correctly? Seems to me that this is a cost of ownership issue with the Leica M8/8.2 (and M9?).

 

[ampguy]

My sample is spot on with M8 and RD1. I got it used, so don't know if it was adjusted at some point or not.

focus test shots with 40/1.4 Nokton

 

[ROOOO]

Thanks, eleskin. I shot Stephen an email. Unfortunately, I did buy the lens slightly used from someone else who had used it with a MFT body. So, we'll see what Camera Quest says in response.

Unfortunately, I won't have much to spend on another lens until probably a year from now, so I'm looking for something in the 50mm equivalent range that is fast and will focus and will allow me to break in to the experience of shooting with a rangefinder. I can't be tempted with the Noctilux or 35mm Summicron just yet. Someday not too far away, though!

 

[macfiend]

My copy is also spot on. I've parked it on the R-D1s and have been shooting with it all week. Everything is tack sharp. Have not tried it on my M8 yet. I probably should.

 

[Makten]

Is it backfocusing regardless of the aperture? My 35/1.4 Nokton backfocuses when stopped down and frontfocuses when wide open because of severe focus shift. Totally useless for anything but f/2.8 where it is spot on.

 

[ROOOO]

Makten, I'll need to do some more rigorous testing, but from what I gathered yesterday, the back focusing seems to be consistent across the aperture range I tried.

 

[ROOOO]

Some of the replies seem to suggest that a lens that's calibrated to focus correctly on, say, an M6 might not focus correctly on an M8/9. Is the inverse also the case--that a lens that focuses correctly on a digital M may not focus correctly on a film M, assuming that the rangefinders in the cameras are correct? Or is there something about film cameras that's more forgiving, allows more latitude for faults in the lens?

 

[bidnez]

It seems plausible that the quality of CV lenses may vary individually - most samples are good, but you might also get real unlucky. I bought a 1,5/50 Nokton from a member here, didn´t need it after all and sold it on without trying/testing. The guy who bought it found it to be unsharp in the right hand side of the image. I took it back, hvae been testing it on the M8 and have severe problems getting really sharp images.
I hope the thing can be adjusted.

 

[kully]

I wonder if sending these lenses through the postal is causing these problems?

The 50/1.5 was the only lens that focussed properly on my M8, but you had problems. And the 28/1.9 I got off you had problems when it got to me 🙂

As for 40/1.4 and M8 - I have a 40/1.4 which shifts focus backwards as I stop down, at f/5.6 (e.g.) it is not good. It's fine on my film Ms though.

 

[ampguy]

not in my experiences

not in my experiences

A properly adjusted M8, RD1, M6, M4P, should all focus a properly adjusted lens the same, in my experience.

Some of the replies seem to suggest that a lens that's calibrated to focus correctly on, say, an M6 might not focus correctly on an M8/9. Is the inverse also the case--that a lens that focuses correctly on a digital M may not focus correctly on a film M, assuming that the rangefinders in the cameras are correct? Or is there something about film cameras that's more forgiving, allows more latitude for faults in the lens?

 

[ROOOO]

Updates

Updates

So, I made it to the camera store, but only just before closing, so I didn't really have time to properly test another lens. I did perform the focus test with a 50mm Summicron, though. However, it was hand-held, and I was approximating the angle. That's the first image below. The second image is the focus test with my Nokton. (I held the camera horizontally for all the images below. Oddly, I got considerably better results on the focus test with the Nokton when I held the camera vertically, which I can also post if anyone's interested.)

The third image below is a less scientific test with the Nokton 40, but a better one for me because I had text larger than "Focus Here" to focus on. I stacked up the books with each one about an inch to 1.5 inches further from the camera than the one below it. I focused on "MILAN" in Milan Kundera's name, but the text that's in focus appears to be that of the soccer book by Richard Williams! What do you all think? This seems less than conclusive to me but seems to be pointing towards more of a lens issue than a camera one.

Thanks again for all your help! My camera would probably be on its way back to the dealer for a refund were it not for this forum and the Leica Users one. Hopefully, I will get things sorted out in the next few days and finally get to go out shooting!

Summicron 50 Focus Test: http://bit.ly/4OAo9w
Nokton 40 Focus Test: http://bit.ly/6NzrTK
Nokton 40 Test w/ Books: http://bit.ly/8vBVdM

 

[ampguy]

hard to tell from those tests

hard to tell from those tests

Since you got better results with the RD1 vertically, is it possible your VF is not in alignment horizontally? Can you focus on a small circular dot across the room, like a power on light of stereo or TV?

The 50 cron test looks like focus is on with the camera but I'd agree the other images below show a trace of back focus, if the VF is indeed aligned properly.

So, I made it to the camera store, but only just before closing, so I didn't really have time to properly test another lens. I did perform the focus test with a 50mm Summicron, though. However, it was hand-held, and I was approximating the angle. That's the first image below. The second image is the focus test with my Nokton. (I held the camera horizontally for all the images below. Oddly, I got considerably better results on the focus test with the Nokton when I held the camera vertically, which I can also post if anyone's interested.)

The third image below is a less scientific test with the Nokton 40, but a better one for me because I had text larger than "Focus Here" to focus on. I stacked up the books with each one about an inch to 1.5 inches further from the camera than the one below it. I focused on "MILAN" in Milan Kundera's name, but the text that's in focus appears to be that of the soccer book by Richard Williams! What do you all think? This seems less than conclusive to me but seems to be pointing towards more of a lens issue than a camera one.

Thanks again for all your help! My camera would probably be on its way back to the dealer for a refund were it not for this forum and the Leica Users one. Hopefully, I will get things sorted out in the next few days and finally get to go out shooting!

Summicron 50 Focus Test: http://bit.ly/4OAo9w
Nokton 40 Focus Test: http://bit.ly/6NzrTK
Nokton 40 Test w/ Books: http://bit.ly/8vBVdM

 

[ROOOO]

Ampguy, the closest thing I could find quickly is the orange light on my space heater, which I set on my chair and photographed from across the room. See attached. What should I be looking for here? BTW, it's an M8 not an RD-1. Not sure if that changes the approach at all.

 

[ampguy]

in the viewfinder, not the image

in the viewfinder, not the image

Sorry, what I meant about VF vertical and horizontal alignment checking, is to look at a small circle, such as the one you photographed, and ensure that the images through the VF converge and overlap completely in the same way viewing vertically and horizontally.

I'm wondering about your VF accuracy, since you mentioned that when focusing vertically, the lens may have focused better.

The RD1(s) VF's sometimes do go out of alignment, but can usually be realigned, some folks do it themselves.

Ampguy, the closest thing I could find quickly is the orange light on my space heater, which I set on my chair and photographed from across the room. See attached. What should I be looking for here?

 

[ROOOO]

Ah! I see what you mean. Let me describe what I saw. I will probably get the terminology all wrong, but will hopefully clearly explain what I see in the viewfinder.

So, when I am focusing using the patch in the center of the rangefinder, there is the real image that I see and then the phantom image that moves from left to right when I rotate the focusing ring on the lens, while holding the camera horizontally. When I was focusing on the orange light on my heater and aligned the two images, the phantom image was just ever so slightly higher than the real image. We're talking about a little light on my heater that is maybe 0.33 inches (I don't have a ruler at my desk to get the measurement exact) and then the vertical space between the real and phantom images when they were aligned represented maybe a 1mm portion of the light (less than 10% of the light's total height)--very small--and probably not something I would have noticed with my glasses unless I was specifically looking for it, as you asked me to do.

This small error seems incidental. Is it something of more consequence than I'm guessing?

 

[ampguy]

Ok

Ok

That is a great description. It sounds like you have a minor VF misalignment that unfortunately is common with the Epsons.

There are quite a few threads about fixing this. I believe it will affect your focusing ability close up and with fast lenses, even if just slightly off.

I've had 4 RD1(s) over the years and once tried living with a very minor error like you describe, but eventually had it fixed. The RD1 I have now has been adjusted, then "cemented down" by the tech.

At some point, you will probably want to get it perfectly aligned - it makes focusing the RD1 easier, more accurate, and pleasant to use.

Ah! I see what you mean. Let me describe what I saw. I will probably get the terminology all wrong, but will hopefully clearly explain what I see in the viewfinder.

So, when I am focusing using the patch in the center of the rangefinder, there is the real image that I see and then the phantom image that moves from left to right when I rotate the focusing ring on the lens, while holding the camera horizontally. When I was focusing on the orange light on my heater and aligned the two images, the phantom image was just ever so slightly higher than the real image. We're talking about a little light on my heater that is maybe 0.33 inches (I don't have a ruler at my desk to get the measurement exact) and then the vertical space between the real and phantom images when they were aligned represented maybe a 1mm portion of the light (less than 10% of the light's total height)--very small--and probably not something I would have noticed with my glasses unless I was specifically looking for it, as you asked me to do.

This small error seems incidental. Is it something of more consequence than I'm guessing?

 

[ROOOO]

Wow! Although I've read some threads about misaligned viewfinders on M8s, I would never have thought that people were discussing something that's not noticeable unless you're looking for it. Can you suggest other objects I might try focusing to confirm? This seems like it must be a common propblem and that I'm better off having the dealer warranty take care of it rather than trying to replace it with a completely different M8. Thoughts? Thanks!