Notre Dame

[Godfrey]

Notre Dame is/was a beautiful site and a marvelous thing. I have been there many times and have enjoyed its magnificent architecture, grandeur, and the glorious associations of the sacred it holds.

But.

In the end, it is just a building. Like the Roman coliseum, the Parthenon, the Egyptian pyramids, and all the many other massive iconic creations of humankind over Time that are now just memories in our collective consciousness. Its cultural and religious associations are a part of human history, and a part of Time. And like everything else under the Sun, its Time passes and eventually ends.

Fire took this one, likely an accident from the effort to maintain it, it seems. Sad, but such is Life and Time. Not like the hundreds, if not thousands, of other cathedrals and monasteries, and altars and sacred places that have been intentionally and willfully destroyed by humankind that disagreed over their significance or sought to put down those who thought a thing was important to subjugate them. It's gotten off lightly.

Perhaps it will be rebuilt. Perhaps another iconic memory of it will be constructed on the site. Perhaps it will be razed and the site used for other things. In the end it doesn't matter much ... it is/was/will be there for all of us as part of our collective consciousness for as long as we choose to remember it. And the work of all those artisans, the events of all that history, are part of that memory as well. Grieve for the moment that has passed; honor them, honor those things, and move forward into Time.

That's the only choice we ever have.

G

... The favorite photo I made in the shadow of Notre Dame is this one:

​

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."​

 

[JoeV]

Then the entire thread should be deleted.

What is that building about?

And are you the forum owner or moderator?

Bill, regardless of the Institution’s issues, your comment was ill-timed and insensitive, considering the ashes haven’t even cooled. You come off as tone deaf and callous.

Maybe go back and post more jokes to the joke thread?

 

[ChrisPlatt]

Shame on you! This is not the time or place for political diatribes.

I am not religious - far from it in fact - however this building is one of the great cultural treasures of the world.

Hopefully extensive photographic documentation will aid in the restoration process, which will take years or decades.

Chris

 

[xayraa33]

It will be re-built, not easy or fast or inexpensive, but very doable even in our age.

Notre Dame is too important to the French psyche and French history and French nationalistic pride and indeed to world history and culture for it not to be restored to its original glory, and it will be restored. The French are a proud and intelligent people that know their history and their greatness and will accept nothing else.

I am optimistic about this, just a temporary setback, that is all.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

I am honestly sorry to have offended anyone personally, that was not my intention, even if the wording could have been interpreted that way. I am sorry for using the word "philistinism", it is a word I would have applied to myself, had I looked at this event as some have. It is a word I have applied to myself in the past after apprehending the nature of things a bit more deeply. I should have kept it to myself.

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much. It will be okay on the one hand, and no it won't, not really, on the other. Theseus' paradox. The post was also an oblique question about the nature and importance of beauty, though the relationship of beauty to the original creation of a thing is too much to go into here.
I understand the nature of impermanence as well as anyone, and the origin of Ecclesiastes, but that doesn't change anything, at least for me.
If my post was enough to trigger the idea that the entire thread needed to be deleted, then it obviously was not written in a way which adequately expressed my feelings. I was angling for bigger fish and it was the best I could do under the circumstances. At this point, I can't do any better.
Sorry.

 

[xayraa33]

I am honestly sorry to have offended anyone personally, that was not my intention, even if the wording could have been interpreted that way. I am sorry for using the word "philistinism", it is a word I would have applied to myself, had I looked at this event as some have. It is a word I have applied to myself in the past after apprehending the nature of things a bit more deeply. I should have kept it to myself.

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much. It will be okay on the one hand, and no it won't, not really, on the other. Theseus' paradox. The post was also an oblique question about the nature and importance of beauty, though the relationship of beauty to the original creation of a thing is too much to go into here.
I understand the nature of impermanence as well as anyone, and the origin of Ecclesiastes, but that doesn't change anything, at least for me.
If my post was enough to trigger the idea that the entire thread needed to be deleted, then it obviously was not written in a way which adequately expressed my feelings. I was angling for bigger fish and it was the best I could do under the circumstances. At this point, I can't do any better.
Sorry.

I don't think this thread needs to be deleted.

There is nothing offensive to anyone here, just varying opinions and different takes on the matter, that is a healthy thing on a public forum.
No one is being insulted and outraged, even die-hard social justice warriors looking for something to do will agree on this, just read the thread, it is mostly very civil and very polite and very good.

Are we that namby-pamby these days ?

What have we become .

 

[frank-grumman]

@Larry Cloetta, those who took offense at your post, perhaps ought to look for thicker skin. IMHO, you have nothing to apologize for.

@xayraa33, indeed so, as to 'namby-pamby' Good grief!! This thread for me has been a remarkable tour through the thinking of obviously very bright folks, each of whom is grappling (or not) with the impact of the destruction of Notre Dame.

IMHO, I offer unapologetically, that the metaphor as to the "Church" is entirely appropriate..... would that $300 million be expended on the clean-up of the corruption in "Church as Body." In its rawest sense, it is a remarkable level of hypocrisy that the underpinnings of the Church as Body remain as is, all the while extolling the "rebuilding of the the Church."

 

[Michael Markey]

I don't think this thread needs to be deleted.

I agree and I`m Catholic.
I`m not offended although I did wonder why the remark was thrown into a lovely /sad thread about the loss of such beautiful art.

 

[DanskDynamit]

Then the entire thread should be deleted.

What is that building about?

And are you the forum owner or moderator?

90% of the posts did not talk about religion but about the beautiful building that Notre Dame is.

The building is a cathedral, do you think the architects and workers doing the restoration were discussing religion before planning their works? can't you separate a building from your opinions on the religion it represents? I can, and it is very easy.
I'm not the forum owner nor moderator but I have respect for this forum and specially for the thread about this beautiful building that will be closed because someone trolls it with religion.

 

[Ted Striker]

My post was mainly an observation on why reactions to the fire have differed so much.

I have no idea what you are seeing. From my view, all across the world reactions have been almost in unison. Extreme sadness that such a great building has been lost. That such beautiful artwork that has stood the test of centuries has burned before our eyes.


I have seen virtually no deviation from thoughts like these whatsoever.


It is an unspeakable tragedy. Yes, the cathedral will be rebuilt, but it will never, ever be the same.

 

[Bill Clark]

It’s time for me to quit posting here on this forum.

Bye.

 

[Ted Striker]

I imagine that every square cm of that church was well documented so those who do the rebuilding will have more than just memories to work with.

 

[xayraa33]

@Larry Cloetta, those who took offense at your post, perhaps ought to look for thicker skin. IMHO, you have nothing to apologize for.

@xayraa33, indeed so, as to 'namby-pamby' Good grief!! This thread for me has been a remarkable tour through the thinking of obviously very bright folks, each of whom is grappling (or not) with the impact of the destruction of Notre Dame.

IMHO, I offer unapologetically, that the metaphor as to the "Church" is entirely appropriate..... would that $300 million be expended on the clean-up of the corruption in "Church as Body." In its rawest sense, it is a remarkable level of hypocrisy that the underpinnings of the Church as Body remain as is, all the while extolling the "rebuilding of the the Church."

It is just another tragic chapter in our material world.

No more tragic than wars and untimely death or the Frisco earthquake and fire of 1906 or the sacking and destruction of the second temple by Titus in 70 AD or the burning of the library of Alexandria in 48 BC and 272 AD under Aurelian or even the destruction of the library of Baghdad by the Mongols.

This is the human condition, nasty stuff happens, by hook or by crook or by bad luck and by the law of chaos and then the usual order out of chaos.

I would not worry too much about the " Body of the Church" as it controls its destiny and the many sides you imagine are opposed to it, but are not opposed to it in actuality, as it secretly controls them through various means, just more divide and conquer play acting.

Like in a stage show for public consumption, good, bad, horrific, saint, sinner and indifferent it is all part of the script it has written for its self. And its death has been falsely announced many times throughout history, but all for nought, as it is always in control behind the curtain, like the Wizard of OZ.

 

[BernardL]

All the facile happy talk about the cathedral being “rebuilt”

(...)

Some will care, some will not. It was ever thus.

Most of the stone structure survived. The stained glass survived. At one time there were flames inside the North tower, the firemen's water jets looked minuscule and powerless, and I feared the worst. Yet the fire was eventually contained.

Well, I suppose this kind of attitude qualifies me as "don't care", not part of the Caring Few.

 

[Michael Markey]

"The Rosace Nord has survived. The South and West windows were very extensively restored in the 18th and 19th century, but the North Rose Window has stood basically unchanged for 800 years, the glass is the 13th century original".

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

I imagine that every square cm of that church was well documented so those who do the rebuilding will have more than just memories to work with.

Wonderfully, it had recently been 3D mapped. With everything else as well this should be one to avoid reinterpretations!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2019/04/16/we-have-beautiful-3d-laser-maps-of-every-detail-of-notre-dame/

 

[Dralowid]

Of course it will be rebuilt (see fire at York Cathedral and earlier reconstruction in Europe after two World Wars). The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost. Skills that many of us would appreciate. It will take many years and much money. It can be done, in the UK many cathedrals have permanent teams of masons etc and it is the same in France.

The rebuilding itself should be seen as part of our race's endeavour and something, in itself, to be proud of.

 

[Ambro51]

At least this was an accident, and not an act of Terror.

 

[xayraa33]

Of course it will be rebuilt (see fire at York Cathedral and earlier reconstruction in Europe after two World Wars). The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost. Skills that many of us would appreciate. It will take many years and much money. It can be done, in the UK many cathedrals have permanent teams of masons etc and it is the same in France.

The rebuilding itself should be seen as part of our race's endeavour and something, in itself, to be proud of.

Right on !

I agree 100%

"The rebuilding will be an opportunity to train new artisans in old skills that are in danger of being lost."

A wonderful art and occupation, although physically demanding even in modern times but rewarding as a craft.

My grandfather and his father , (my great grand father) were both operative master stone masons that specialised in working in granite and ashlar and as a child I was always fascinated by the specialised tools of their craft and with my grandfather's artistic skill with working and carving very hard stone, it looked like second nature to him. Too bad that he died when I was 8 years old, he was one of the nicest and one of the most intelligent men I ever met, and he had no university education.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

I have no idea what you are seeing. From my view, all across the world reactions have been almost in unison. Extreme sadness that such a great building has been lost. That such beautiful artwork that has stood the test of centuries has burned before our eyes.


I have seen virtually no deviation from thoughts like these whatsoever.


It is an unspeakable tragedy. Yes, the cathedral will be rebuilt, but it will never, ever be the same.

What I "was seeing" was the "it's just a building" comments. I'm not denigrating that, I just don't understand it, even though I understand 'sic transit gloria mundi' perfectly well. That is the differing reactions I was referring to, although there have been internet photos posted of the burning with laughing emoji's attached. Not going to go there.

Pragmatism is a philosophy of life, as is Epicureanism. Neither of which I can take seriously, though I understand the attraction. Some do.
Life goes on. Tomorrow is another day. I get that. On the other hand I also sense an occasional whiff of "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"
"A time to be born, and a time to die;" Yes, yes, true enough, but is that all there is to it?
"Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown." ?

Can a 21st century simulacrum of a 12th century thing, still retain the original gestalt, the original meaning, the original beauty? That's what I was going on about. For me, no, since I am not a pragmatist, and, that's the question I was ineffectively raising in this "arts" forum, a forum which might be tangentially concerned with the nature of Beauty, and facades.
The loss bothers me, more than it bothers others, it's the 'why' of that, I was attempting to explore. Is this permanent "loss" something I am able to see that others don't, or something I only imagine because I'm insufficiently aware of life's big picture mysteries? People will differ on that, not necessarily in even numbers.

Words are obviously failing me, so please disregard if none of this rings true. I don't mind, and I understand that.
Too emotional, not enough math on my part, maybe that's all it is. Yet the feeling persists.
Too artsy fartsy? Yeah, probably, but it's an honest artsy fartsy.