Number of Leica M Bodies Per Year

[x-ray]

Last year I purchased a new a la carte MP that was delivered in mid April 2006. Today I received a LHSA MP made sometime in 2002. The difference in serial number was 5400 roughly. How can a company survive on this few cameras per month. I don't know what monthe the LHSA MP was made but do some math.

 

[Avotius]

as I understand it leica sn's are not liniar, they bounce around from one number group to another, that said, I also wonder how leica can survive on so few cameras too...must be the lenses

 

[Athena]

Last year I purchased a new a la carte MP that was delivered in mid April 2006. Today I received a LHSA MP made sometime in 2002. The difference in serial number was 5400 roughly. How can a company survive on this few cameras per month. I don't know what monthe the LHSA MP was made but do some math.

They survive by finding new investors who are gullible enough to think that they, unlike their predecessors, really do know "what's needed to save this company". :bang:

Besides, it's a German company - before it really tanks the government will step in and keep it afloat.

 

[MadMan2k]

They probably make more selling the little red badges for those Panasonic pos digital cameras (oops, I mean p&s) than they do selling M bodies, maybe even lenses...

 

[Olsen]

Besides, it's a German company - before it really tanks the government will step in and keep it afloat.

- There isn't that much help to get from the German politicians since they are not at all as corrupt as their american counterparts.

Leica was for a long time one of Germany's most profitable companies. It went public, the shares went sky hi, and millions were payed out as dividends to shareholders. Instead of being invested in product development or purchase of small high tech companies that could have given them a entrance to the future.

In later years it has gone very bad. Millions has been running out of the till and employers by the hundreds have lost their jobs. Desperately, and with all to small resources - from careful shareholders, a new managment has tried to turn the boat. I think they have done a good job so far, but Leica still has red figures on bottom line.

Now the austrian Hoffman family has practically bought the whole company. Their intentions might be the best for the company and it's loyal customers. Still I feel that the best merger for Leica would have been a competitor with resources also on the technical side that could boost Leica's product development - and even could deduct some of their own research money in the process. Canon would have been the best candidate to mine opinion.

- It could well be that this is what the Hoffman family sees as a future for Leica too. We'll see.

 

[x-ray]

I haven't followed the financial problems of leica but wonder if they are still part of the larger medical, scientific and industrial company. I'm in research facilities and hospitals all the time and regularly see Leica microscopes in labs and surgical suites. I know they and Zeiss are leaders in these aread but don't know if they're independent from that group now. if they're part of the Leica instruments group then possibly they're getting funding to keep them alive and don't have to be a big money maker. It might be better for the total company to keep the camera name alive although microscopes are where they started. Since I was a microbiology major in college in the 60's I've used ans till own a leitz microscope. The only one I could afford was a 1920's30's model. It's still a very fine scope but it seems asthough Zeiss is creaping up and taking over that market. I wonder if Zeiss lenses in particular will not sink the leica lens market. Bodies are excellent too and probably have seriously cut into the M body market. I own both leica lenses and bodies and also three of the new ZM lenses and a ZI. No bias here, if starting from scratch today I would go all Zeiss . This is not at all based on price but optical quality and ergonomics and the body has the best RF / VF anywhere.

 

[telenous]

I wonder if Zeiss lenses in particular will not sink the leica lens market. Bodies are excellent too and probably have seriously cut into the M body market.

X-ray,

This is a more complex issue than the zerosome game between Leica and Zeiss that sometimes it is represented to be. The buyers of ZI's may end up buying a Leica lens or two and vc. vs. I know Zeiss lens owners are very happy with their lenses but it must be obvious that Leica lens owners are also very happy with theirs and the thought of replacing them with Zeiss ones is nowhere near as pressing as you make it seem. Quite on the contrary! As for new buyers of lenses, choice is good, and it seems that there are reasons to choose either way (or so the market would have one believe). It is not impossible I hope for both brands to co-exist in a business enivronment that is not as as cuthroat as the (D)SLR one.

Also, I am not privy of any sales figures but my guess is that ZI's do not outsell new Leicas although there's no denying that they must have dented a bit the sales figures of the M7 in particular. Overall, I am personally hopeful that Zeiss' involvement with the rangefinder world will relatively revitalize the field for both companies.

As for the serial numbers, as far as I know, Leica assigns them in batches for different product lines. Serial numbers do not establish a time sequence between products but rather within batches.

Best,

 

[Mackinaw]

I can tell you that, back in the early-mid 1990's before the digital onslaught, Leica sold between 10,000 - 14,000 M6 cameras/year world-wide. No idea what they sell now, but I suspect it's a great deal less.

Jim Bielecki

 

[JCT]

x-ray, you bring up an interesting point--- I work in biomedical research and still see a real "mix" in our high-end light-based imaging gear. Our analytical imaging facility has microscopes from Zeiss, Olympus and our main confocal (that I really enjoy using) is a Leica-- tweaky instrument, but great images.

What I have noticed, however, is fewer Leica 'scopes among the more plebian setups, my lab has 3 microscopes for varying purposes, one Zeiss and 2 from olympus. Probably going to add a third Olympus by the end of the year. I think there are two major reasons for this : (1) I think the Leicas still carry a bit of a price premium-- and given the poor state of NIH funding at present, every nickle counts and (2) the reps for Zeiss and Olympus are much more visible around here.

JT

 

[Ben Z]

How can a company survive on this few cameras per month.

They can't, which is why a year ago they were an eye-blink away from bankruptcy. Then came the ritual slaughter of two successive CEO's, the hiring of an interim turnaround specialist (Dr. Spichtig), the appointment of Mr. Lee as new CEO, and the buyout of Hermes' shares. At present Leica is operating thanks to the infusion of cash and the good credit rating of the Kaufmann's. They were banking on the M8 as the turnaround product that would put Leica back on the map. Unfortunately the M8 is not making a good reputation for itself due to many issues and Leica is still struggling to make enough of them for the first wave of orders that people placed prior to November. After that it remains to be seen if there will be much continued interest in the M8 once the hard-core fans have been served. If only Leica could put an IR filter over their bottom line and make red ink turn black 😉

 

[Xmas]

The M3 was innovative and pros used it, Nikon and Canon were cut throat competitors, all three eat Zeiss' lunch.

The Barnack Leica from pre WWI was innovative and Zeiss were a cut throat competitor, Leitz held them at bay.

The M8 may sell better then the M4-2 and keep leica afloat, it neither seem to be the M3 or Barnack, nor it is an albatross like the M5 was.

Leica are hanging on by finger nails commercially, not helped by real rnge finder competition from CV.

If they go under then after a while the collectors will push up the prices, e.g. Reid prices are silly as a shooter I bought a reid lens '70 as it was given away as the manufacture shut down, it was cheaper than a CLA on my summar, should a kept it.

Noel

 

[Joerg]

I haven't followed the financial problems of leica but wonder if they are still part of the larger medical, scientific and industrial company. I'm in research facilities and hospitals all the time and regularly see Leica microscopes in labs and surgical suites. I know they and Zeiss are leaders in these aread but don't know if they're independent from that group now. if they're part of the Leica instruments group then possibly they're getting funding to keep them alive and don't have to be a big money maker. .

Leica camera is independent from the instrument groups (geosystems and microsystems).

Ciao

Joerg

 

[Ken Ford]

Back to the original question, are MP serial number in a different sequence than the M7? I suspect the M7 outsells the MP by a large margin...

 

[peter_n]

Modern Leica uses serial nrs. in batch sets. There is no real sequence anymore except within each batch set. I have two M7 bodies bought within 3 months of each other. The first, serial nr. 2942xxx was bought as a one year-old used body from Australia. The second, serial nr. 2786xxx was bought as a brand-new US Passport body here in the US. It is possible that the US camera had a long shelf life before I bought it, but equally possible that it was manufactured after the Australian one.

 

[jody]

Eventually if they continue to have outrageous prices the company will go under. The M8 is junk for 4000 dollars body only. It is broke as soon as it comes out of the box. Maybe a few people have this kind of money to watse but not most. There are better cameras out there for a lot less. I hear about the build quality of old leicas, I dont doubt that but for the price of one good Leica I have bought 12 FSU cameras. They may not last long but they will be working when I die.

 

[aizan]

that raises a question: how many cameras do you need?

 

[Topdog1]

that raises a question: how many cameras do you need?

As many as you can afford.

/Ira

 

[x-ray]

I think Leica is suffering from the same problem that kodak is. Kodak and leica were kings in their area of sales untill real competition came in. Fuji came in in the 80's and left kodak sitting by the side of the road licking their wounds. Kodak has never adjusted to the fact they don't dictate the market now and they have no inovative thinking and if they do once in a while the execution of the technology is a major failure for examle the 14N digital slr. Leica suffers from the same syndrome. Nikon came in with the F and then canon with the F1 as well as other manufacturers saw the writing on the wall and ramped up with inovative slr designs and excellent equipment. Leica seems to think the name leica is all that's needed. What they really need is inovation and a compedative price. This has been said many times but Leica needs to partner with someone other than kodak with their long list of failures and get with someone like Nikon or Canon with real success and inovative ideas. A blend of technology and quality at a reasonable price. I agree the M8 doesn't bring anything to the table to attract new Leica buyers. Leica seemed to be on the right track with the DMR but fell shotr on pro features like full frame and higher pixel count. With the 1DsII at under $7,000 for a ready to go body the DMR and R9 are just too high in price with too few features.

The reflex cameras can't be big sellers and the M's certainly aren't. Lens sale can't be that great either. My guess is they cut their own throats building cameras and lenses that are still cranking after 50 or more years. It appears to me most of the leica lens and body sales are in the used market. Possibly Leica needs to start a referb probram at a reasonable price to restore these older cameras and lenses.

 

[SDK]

I suspect M-body prices will remain high. To increase lens sales, Leica will be forced to design some more "economy" lenses like the new 28mm/2.8 ASPH. That's not so bad since the lens is in most respects better than the v.4 Elmarit 28mm, yet smaller, lighter and cheaper to make and sell.

Isn't the M8 selling as fast as they can make them? That will likely continue, though eventually they will have to work toward 24MP and full frame sensors, as sensors get better across the high end digital market.

If Leica goes belly up, Zeiss and Cosina will remain, and I would not be surprised if Nikon or Canon stepped into the M rangefinder market.

 

[aizan]

i went to the alec soth lecture at photo la, and i saw a trendily dressed woman taking a picture of the public art in front of the parking lot. guess what camera she had?