Odd BW issue with developing 2 identical rolls

[alienmeatsack]

I seem to be attracting the problems with film developing lately. I've got some C-41 issues going on and now this BW issue.

This one is particularly perplexing...

I just developed 2 rolls of Arista EDU Ultra. Both purchased recently and both from batches I've been using with no problems over the last 2 weeks.

One was 100 speed I shot tonight, one was 400 speed I shot on Saturday at a baby shower.

I developed both tonight in my pretty fresh batch of Diafine that I've been developing in the last few days with great results. Both went through the processing per usual... Diafine A 5 mins, Diafine B 5 mins, rinse, fix in TF-4 5 minutes, rinse, photoflo and hang to dry.

The 100 speed roll came out fine, looks exactly how it should. I see clear crisp images, frame marks along the edges and the name of the film along the other edge as I should.

The 400 speed roll however was noticeably dark/fogged/grey when I pulled it out. I could barely see the images on the film and the frame numbers and such are barely visible. I didn't even know they were there until I scanned it.

I can't even see the frame edges well enough to cut it into strips to scan. So I stuck the whole strip into my 35mm mask to do some test scans and I get a muddy gloppy mess that looks like film from the 70s that was stored in a pantry it's whole life.

The only differences between the two rolls is one is 100 and one is 400... and I think one of the rolls was frozen and defrosted to use a while back. But I've been freezing and using film without any issues for ages.

I've also noticed when I scanned the sprockets too that there's a strange grey discoloration or pattern around the sprocket holes too.

I've attached a larger scan so you can see what I'm talking about. The fogging is uneven and it looks like nothing I've come across in my developing days.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions?

 

[crawdiddy]

Were these both the same emulsion, and you rated them at different speeds, or were you shooting at the designated speed? I'm not familiar with Diafine (I use D76), but I can imagine making a mistake when calculating proper development with pushed or pulled film.

That should still get you clear frame lines, with sprocket area unexposed. It almost looks to me like a light leak. Perhaps when transferring to development reels? Do you use a changiong bag? Or a darkroom?

 

[alienmeatsack]

crawdiddy - Diafine is a compensating developer, so it doesn't matter what speeds or brand or anything. You just run the rolls through 5 minutes for each A and B solution, rinse, fix and you are good. I've done this hundreds of times before and this is the first oopsie I've had so I should count my blessings.

I did some checking... this film was part of a two 10-roll pack order from early June. I've shot 10 of those already and they are fine.

I've accounted for the remaining 10 rolls from the lot that was in the 10-pack... three of which were shot this weekend and 7 were in the freezer. One of those shot was the one seen above. So, it's either a bad 10-pack or a bad roll or just a fluke.

I won't know until I develop one of the other rolls I shot and then develop one of the other unshot rolls to check.

 

[alienmeatsack]

Yes, it does look like a light leak! That is what is wierd. 😀 You can see above how inconsistent the "leak" is too, it's lumpy/textural on the film and goes from edge to edge as if the whole roll was exposed. And it's not darker/faded more from one end of the film to the other either which is odd.

I used all three of the rolls in this group on Saturday. No problems with the camera or loading/unloading. Shot other film in same day with no problems. Was loaded into the reels and tank in a changing bag and the other roll of film, the 400 speed that came out fine, was also loaded during the same session.

Puzzling right? 😀

 

[yanchep_mike]

Not Sure, just run it through the fixer for another 5 Min.
then wash and see what happens

 

[alienmeatsack]

For kicks, I dipped part of it into the fixer and left it for 5 minutes. I see no change or difference between the old and new section. I'm using TF-4 mixed with Distilled water to spec dilution here FWIW.

Could this be a freezer/defrost issue? I always defrost carefully and have never seen problems before.

 

[Photo_Smith]

Looks like moisture damage, the film has stuck together whilst in store that is why you have little bits of emulsion missing, film has been damp then dried.

I have seen similar before with a bulk roll, the Agfa scientist Brian Drage informed me that keeping mono film dry is more important than refrigeration.

 

[alienmeatsack]

I was hoping it was just a fluke or a bad roll.. but if it's moisture damage there's a good chance its the whole 10 pack since they were frozen and then defrosted together.

I won't know until I develop a few of the other rolls.

I've never had problems with my frozen films ever and I am so careful about how I bring them out and warm them up. I literally have a freezer full of stuff that I'm kind of paranoid about at this point.

But I am hoping maybe this one is a fluke. These rolls were part of a 10 pack that came from sitting on the hot porch. They sat indoors for a few hours. THen I put them into the freezer in a ziplock, still shrinkwrapped together. And I think as I said earlier, the other 10 rolls that were purchased with them were fine. Hoping for an anomaly with these and the rest are ok.

 

[alienmeatsack]

Is it possible that the above is heat damage? If I remember correctly, the day this film arrived it was pretty hot outside and it was left on the porch.

I've had film left like that before and never had issues.

But I am wondering if it got really hot, then when I brought it into the house, that was the problem... Either the change in temperature to the house temp caused moisture/condensation or the process of going from heat to cool and then to the freezer did it. I always wait a day before I put them in the freezer if they were outside to avoid this.

Just kind of rambling and speculating at this point. I tend to get hung up on details like this, get paranoid etc. I have a TON of film frozen at home and have never had a problem before and now I'm freaked out by this whole situation.

 

[gsgary]

Why not shoot another roll tomorrow and see what happens

 

[alienmeatsack]

That's my plan.

I have two rolls to develop from Saturday of the same batch, shot with the same camera. And there was one roll out in the film container from that batch. And then the rest were in the freezer which I took them out to let them come to room temp to try.

I'm going to shoot one of the frozen ones and process it along with one of the rolls from Saturday. I hope to try this tonight when I get home. But I am not sure when I'll be home and I was up pretty late last night trying to figure out my color chemical issues too.

I know the chemicals are not the problem in this instance as I developed other stuff that was fine.

I tend to obsess over things I cannot do anything about then worry and go back and forth until I can troubleshoot.

Fun. lol.

 

[alienmeatsack]

Update. I just finished developing two rolls from this same batch of Arista EDU Ultra 400 film that was a problem before.

One was shot on Saturday with the rest. The other was shot today in another camera.

Both rolls look normal as far as the visual results go. (Whew, sort of.)

However, on one of the rolls from Saturday, I noticed that the emulsion was soft and slimy and was just wiping off in my hands. I also noticed that my reels had gotten darker and required some cleaning. I've never seen either of these two problems before and I've developed a lot of B/W over the last year.

I think I am going to put the rest of this film into storage and not use it. It's a loss of 6 rolls but I don't trust it enough to use for anything. I trust old expired films I've never used over these at this point.

So, I am chalking it up as a lot of 10 bad rolls either due to storage or failure from the factory and moving forward.

 

[gsgary]

Only time i have seen something like this is with very old film thats been given to me, i have never frozen film only kept it in the fridge now and again