PaulN
Monkey
I've been following the two very active threads on m9 purchase advice & the m9 sick-of-reliability issues and am curious to know just how reliable the m9 is.
This afternoon, I grabbed my MP, dropped in a roll of XP2 and went out shooting with great delight. It would be nice if I could already share the pictures with folks, but they need to be processed. As I shot the MP, I kept thinking that it'd be great if I had an M9 and could view the pics as soon as I got home.
For those with an M9, is it a spontaneous "out the door and shooting" camera, or is there a sense of dread that it "something is going to go wrong" ?
I've been saving for awhile and was going to buy a new Royal Enfield motorcycle - similar to Leica, the design hasn't changed since the 50s, but it has a newer engine, fuel injection, etc. It is a new "old" bike. I started reading up on it, and have found numerous issues with the bike - parts breaking, reliability issues, etc. For some folks the bike just works, but for a lot of others, reliability issues keep it limited to a weekend bike. The japanese bikes, though, ran like a clock. Limited maintenance, no reliability issues, cheaper, etc. Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, etc. all make similar bikes, but none with the classic styling & ride characteristics of the Royal Enfield. After a long bit of thinking, I'm passing on the motorcycle; too much "risk" in the world. I'm not placing my safety in the hands of a distracted driver who is too busy to pay attention to the road..
And that brings be back to the M9. If I buy an M9, am I essentially buying a problem? Like bikes, someone people roll the dice and end up buying a "friday bike" and it turns out to be a lemon. Maybe Leica fixes it, maybe not?
Just like bike forums, those with the most problems are the most vocal, but what is the norm? If I get a "good" M9, is it reliable, or is it a given that it will go back to the shop one day or another - hopefully while under warranty? Or will it just work?
This afternoon, I grabbed my MP, dropped in a roll of XP2 and went out shooting with great delight. It would be nice if I could already share the pictures with folks, but they need to be processed. As I shot the MP, I kept thinking that it'd be great if I had an M9 and could view the pics as soon as I got home.
For those with an M9, is it a spontaneous "out the door and shooting" camera, or is there a sense of dread that it "something is going to go wrong" ?
I've been saving for awhile and was going to buy a new Royal Enfield motorcycle - similar to Leica, the design hasn't changed since the 50s, but it has a newer engine, fuel injection, etc. It is a new "old" bike. I started reading up on it, and have found numerous issues with the bike - parts breaking, reliability issues, etc. For some folks the bike just works, but for a lot of others, reliability issues keep it limited to a weekend bike. The japanese bikes, though, ran like a clock. Limited maintenance, no reliability issues, cheaper, etc. Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, etc. all make similar bikes, but none with the classic styling & ride characteristics of the Royal Enfield. After a long bit of thinking, I'm passing on the motorcycle; too much "risk" in the world. I'm not placing my safety in the hands of a distracted driver who is too busy to pay attention to the road..
And that brings be back to the M9. If I buy an M9, am I essentially buying a problem? Like bikes, someone people roll the dice and end up buying a "friday bike" and it turns out to be a lemon. Maybe Leica fixes it, maybe not?
Just like bike forums, those with the most problems are the most vocal, but what is the norm? If I get a "good" M9, is it reliable, or is it a given that it will go back to the shop one day or another - hopefully while under warranty? Or will it just work?
Efra1
Established
Buy a Harley Davidson, if you think in "classic" HD is a MUST, here in Europe we buy HD much more expensive that in EEUU, but is THE bike men...
Royal E. is cute, but no more than 500cc, made in India, you live in the right place for a right bike.
I just cross EEUU last June with 6 friends on a HD and I can tell you is a RELIGIUS EXPERIENCE....
I have a M9, is a great camera, but a HD will be a great bike for many more years, I shure, and then you have time to save for a better M camera
Best
Royal E. is cute, but no more than 500cc, made in India, you live in the right place for a right bike.
I just cross EEUU last June with 6 friends on a HD and I can tell you is a RELIGIUS EXPERIENCE....
I have a M9, is a great camera, but a HD will be a great bike for many more years, I shure, and then you have time to save for a better M camera
Best
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Well, my M9 has always worked OK, for nearly 2 years since I got it.
Yes, the Bullet needs a lot of maintenance, but it handles like a dream and other drivers are not really a major risk, any more than with any other vehicle (I've done several thousand km on Bullets in India). It's a much more modern bike than a H-D, 50s instead of 30s.
Put it this way: if I were to buy another bike alongside my 1978 R100RS (6000 miles in 6 weeks in June/July, on top of maybe 150,000 miles since I bought it 30 years ago) it would be a Bullet.
Of course a lot of it is luck, but I suspect (having considered the parallels) that a good deal too is down to unrealistic expectations and lack of mechanical sympathy.
You might find the following interesting: http://www.semiadventuroustraveler.com/semi mctie bullet.html (the Bullet) and http://www.semiadventuroustraveler.com/semi india1.html (touring in India).
Cheers,
R.
Yes, the Bullet needs a lot of maintenance, but it handles like a dream and other drivers are not really a major risk, any more than with any other vehicle (I've done several thousand km on Bullets in India). It's a much more modern bike than a H-D, 50s instead of 30s.
Put it this way: if I were to buy another bike alongside my 1978 R100RS (6000 miles in 6 weeks in June/July, on top of maybe 150,000 miles since I bought it 30 years ago) it would be a Bullet.
Of course a lot of it is luck, but I suspect (having considered the parallels) that a good deal too is down to unrealistic expectations and lack of mechanical sympathy.
You might find the following interesting: http://www.semiadventuroustraveler.com/semi mctie bullet.html (the Bullet) and http://www.semiadventuroustraveler.com/semi india1.html (touring in India).
Cheers,
R.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Since I'm the protagonist of the reliability thread and recently the loudest about this issue some may dismiss what I have to say but I'm honest.
I don't know about there here and there quality control where some M9 bodies have performed flawlessly and others have been leaving much to be desired. The camera feels extremely well built and I really like mine. I've had it for about 6 weeks shy of a year and the images it makes are outstanding. It's a hundred times more camera than I need, probably but I intend to use it to make part of a living.
As of right now, I'd still say that the M9 is a good bet, especially since Leica recently offered a warranty upgrade which, I'm willing to bet, almost all M9 owners will take advantage of. Lately, if you don't like the M9 and sell it in the same condition you bought it in, you'll basically be out the amount of shipping. Right now they are holding value considering the shortage around the world of Leica products.
So, if you have the money to spend on it and already have some Leica lenses you love then it's probably a good choice if you want to go digital. Realistically, it's the ONLY choice which will fully utilize what you like about Leica lenses.
I've had a few weeks to cool off after my initial posting of finding yet another stuck pixel. But those are another issue. The real issue is probably the service which Leica users are forced to live with. Here in the states, it's quite slow and when the folks at Leica NJ are called about the camera, they can seem at times, as if they have completely lost record of ever receiving the camera. Different answers are sometimes given with each phone call: (paraphrased from and actual post about service)
"we've had a delay, it will be a week or two"
"we had a few of our technicians on vacation, it will be an additional week"
"a delay has backed us up"
"we've had a few cameras arrive for repair from Leica pro srevices so they got bumped up in the order"
"every customer is served on a first come first served basis, there is no skipping ahead in line"
et al.
Those are some of the conversations I'm paraphrasing from a thread on the LUG.
While the reliability and service combined make owning a Leica a game of roulette, the images the camera makes are still better than anything out there with a reasonably similar size. As for convenience, the M9 provides near medium format quality in a very small package.
I will warn that the M9 is not even close to capturing the dynamic range of good black and white films, especially the smooth tones of XP2 developed by a good lab with fresh chemistry and good QC. The M9 shoots more like slide film but so do all digitals. It takes work to expose for highlights or shadows then bring up the desired tones in post.
I hope this helps.
Good luck.
Phil Forrest
I don't know about there here and there quality control where some M9 bodies have performed flawlessly and others have been leaving much to be desired. The camera feels extremely well built and I really like mine. I've had it for about 6 weeks shy of a year and the images it makes are outstanding. It's a hundred times more camera than I need, probably but I intend to use it to make part of a living.
As of right now, I'd still say that the M9 is a good bet, especially since Leica recently offered a warranty upgrade which, I'm willing to bet, almost all M9 owners will take advantage of. Lately, if you don't like the M9 and sell it in the same condition you bought it in, you'll basically be out the amount of shipping. Right now they are holding value considering the shortage around the world of Leica products.
So, if you have the money to spend on it and already have some Leica lenses you love then it's probably a good choice if you want to go digital. Realistically, it's the ONLY choice which will fully utilize what you like about Leica lenses.
I've had a few weeks to cool off after my initial posting of finding yet another stuck pixel. But those are another issue. The real issue is probably the service which Leica users are forced to live with. Here in the states, it's quite slow and when the folks at Leica NJ are called about the camera, they can seem at times, as if they have completely lost record of ever receiving the camera. Different answers are sometimes given with each phone call: (paraphrased from and actual post about service)
"we've had a delay, it will be a week or two"
"we had a few of our technicians on vacation, it will be an additional week"
"a delay has backed us up"
"we've had a few cameras arrive for repair from Leica pro srevices so they got bumped up in the order"
"every customer is served on a first come first served basis, there is no skipping ahead in line"
et al.
Those are some of the conversations I'm paraphrasing from a thread on the LUG.
While the reliability and service combined make owning a Leica a game of roulette, the images the camera makes are still better than anything out there with a reasonably similar size. As for convenience, the M9 provides near medium format quality in a very small package.
I will warn that the M9 is not even close to capturing the dynamic range of good black and white films, especially the smooth tones of XP2 developed by a good lab with fresh chemistry and good QC. The M9 shoots more like slide film but so do all digitals. It takes work to expose for highlights or shadows then bring up the desired tones in post.
I hope this helps.
Good luck.
Phil Forrest
Efra1
Established
Here some shots of my trip
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Efra1
Established
Harry S.
Well-known
Bonneville T100 and an M9. Dreams!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Buy a Harley Davidson, if you think in "classic" HD is a MUST, here in Europe we buy HD much more expensive that in EEUU, but is THE bike men...
Royal E. is cute, but no more than 500cc, made in India, you live in the right place for a right bike.
I just cross EEUU last June with 6 friends on a HD and I can tell you is a RELIGIUS EXPERIENCE....
I have a M9, is a great camera, but a HD will be a great bike for many more years, I shure, and then you have time to save for a better M camera
Best
Hmmmm...Sorry, not an HD fan. I went to Daytona once, and while there were maybe 100,000 motorcycles there, I saw at best maybe 50,000 motorcyclists (many of whom were not on H-Ds). The rest were poseurs, covering tiny mileages while trying to project the 'bad-ass biker' image, known as "Attila the Stockbroker" to many old, hard-line riders. They're nice people, but they're a joke to old, greasy bikers.
In June this year I saw some of the same sort of people at the Aleksandri in Paarnu (GO THERE!): the real motorcyclists were significantly diluted by a load of wannabees with the bandannas, fingerless gloves, and fake 'colours'. Do real motorcyclists truck their bikes to and from rallies, and have a Transit van in attendance to carry the luggage and pick up the breakdowns because the riders can't do their own repairs? Ask my ex-Hell's Angel chum John...
A while back I read a lovely quote from a motorcycling journalist. "I went to a Harley-Davidson rally and all the bikes looked different but all the riders looked the same. The next week I went to a BMW rally and all the bikes looked the same but all the riders looked different."
Of course there are plenty of 'real' motorcyclists who ride H-Ds, but if ever there was a bike where it could be said, as of Leicas and Linhofs, that disproportionately many are bought by dentists and architects, it's H-D. As a Linhof representative once told me many years ago, "Maybe half are bought by photographers, and the other half by wannabees".
Motorcycling as a religious experience? Sure. In my original Motorcycle Touring in Europe (Collins, 1985) I said something like, "In a sense, motorcycle touring is like religion. If you have to ask why people do it, you'll never understand the answers." But I've done a few thousand miles on H-Ds, and another few thousand on Bullets, and many thousand on BMWs (mostly R90S and R100RS) and H-D is a poor third.
Cheers,
R.
250swb
Well-known
In an internet savvy age I still wonder why questions like this are asked? If you had thousands of bitching posts about the unreliablity of the Leica M9 you may rightly think there is a problem, given anybody with a problem vents on the internet. But listen........I can hear silence...... from thousands of people who are using the camera in extreme climate conditions, or day in day out, while out running, cycling, photojournalism, in wars and riots, and they don't need to report its working OK,....... so they don't.
Steve
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
'Cheque book bikies' we call them in Oz Roger!
I have to defend HD though. I've owned almost every brand of bike at some stage and back in the early nineties I had a beautiful signal red and cream Heritage Softail. In spite of it's handling limitations due to ground clearance, that bike was an absolute joy to ride, and on a nice day cruising on the highway at 100 ks it gave me a feeling like nothing I have ever owned before or since. It was alive!
I remember one day going for a ride with a friend who owned a BMW R100 and we swapped bikes for a while. He had always been a little skeptical about my Harley until he rode it ... sure his BM was capable of cruising near flat out all day but the smile on his face when he got of the Softail was priceless. He was blown away by the amount of effortless torque the thing had and the way it 'sat' on the road.
I have to defend HD though. I've owned almost every brand of bike at some stage and back in the early nineties I had a beautiful signal red and cream Heritage Softail. In spite of it's handling limitations due to ground clearance, that bike was an absolute joy to ride, and on a nice day cruising on the highway at 100 ks it gave me a feeling like nothing I have ever owned before or since. It was alive!
I remember one day going for a ride with a friend who owned a BMW R100 and we swapped bikes for a while. He had always been a little skeptical about my Harley until he rode it ... sure his BM was capable of cruising near flat out all day but the smile on his face when he got of the Softail was priceless. He was blown away by the amount of effortless torque the thing had and the way it 'sat' on the road.
Efra1
Established
WOW looks like you know what are you talking about it, I like bikes, I Like H-D, but more like ride.
If I Have to Explain, You Wouldn't Understand.
Chers
Michael Markey
Veteran
Cameras and bikes what more could you ask for
My bike experience was limited to a 1965 BSA C15 and a `65 Honda.
I never scaled the heights of an HD although they`re all that I seem to see on the roads these days.
My bike experience was limited to a 1965 BSA C15 and a `65 Honda.
I never scaled the heights of an HD although they`re all that I seem to see on the roads these days.
jack palmer
Well-known
thousands that use the M9 in extreme climate conditions? wars and riots? Why does that have the ring of BS? I don't doubt that thousands may use the M9 and never report problems on an internet forum.
QUOTE=250swb;1701880]In an internet savvy age I still wonder why questions like this are asked? If you had thousands of bitching posts about the unreliablity of the Leica M9 you may rightly think there is a problem, given anybody with a problem vents on the internet. But listen........I can hear silence...... from thousands of people who are using the camera in extreme climate conditions, or day in day out, while out running, cycling, photojournalism, in wars and riots, and they don't need to report its working OK,....... so they don't.
Steve[/quote]
QUOTE=250swb;1701880]In an internet savvy age I still wonder why questions like this are asked? If you had thousands of bitching posts about the unreliablity of the Leica M9 you may rightly think there is a problem, given anybody with a problem vents on the internet. But listen........I can hear silence...... from thousands of people who are using the camera in extreme climate conditions, or day in day out, while out running, cycling, photojournalism, in wars and riots, and they don't need to report its working OK,....... so they don't.
Steve[/quote]
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
The thing that surprises me about the problems we do have reported with the M9 (and previously the M8) is how many people have lost their cameras for several weeks for a repair but just seem to 'suck it up' and have a bit of a groan here!
It may be a cultural icon in many ways but it's still just a consumer device after all. If I bought a fifty dollar toaster that failed and was then expected to wait several weeks while they fixed it I'd be going to consumer affairs. A seven thousand dollar camera however and it seems acceptable ... I don't get it sorry!
It may be a cultural icon in many ways but it's still just a consumer device after all. If I bought a fifty dollar toaster that failed and was then expected to wait several weeks while they fixed it I'd be going to consumer affairs. A seven thousand dollar camera however and it seems acceptable ... I don't get it sorry!
Michael Markey
Veteran
The "problem" is that many don`t regard it as just a consumer device.
That`s not how its marketed and that`s often not how its perceived.
That`s not how its marketed and that`s often not how its perceived.
JamesFromSydney
James Morris
I suspect if people feel the need to ask about whether a camera is a lemon, it may be. I've never heard anyone talk about the M2 like this.
dave lackey
Veteran
What is the norm? You will never find the norm on a forum and coming from a BMW motorcycle forum after years of riding nothing but the K1200LT, you would think that BMW made only junk! Yet every damned one of them was on the forum and riding the same bike...go figure. MY BMW was perfect, btw.:angel:
If I had an M9 that totally sucked, I would not even be on THIS forum. I reckon that you might just ought to buy an M9 and see for yourself. Why not, what would you have done before the internet bitchiness set in?
Roll the dice.The other alternative is.... well, there is no other alternative to the M8/8.2/9 is there? Except keeping your film M body.
dave lackey
Veteran
In regard to HD... it is a rolling artwork and a pretty good motorcycle. Rode my Dyna all up and down the east coast for years. The only problem I have with HD is the lack of design safety built into the one I had...
1. Hit the front brakes and the front end dives, straight to the asphalt, damhik, it was very painful and expensive! The front suspension of the K1200LT was designed so that this could never happen....
2. The seat was diabolical after 500 miles. Almost crashed a few times on the curvy interstate in West Virginia in the rain because I was so miserable.
3. Hit the rear brake once when traffic slammed to a stop and the rear wheel skidded me into a tank slapper that I survived. On second thought, I guess it worked out to be practice for my next tank slapper on the BMW K1200LT. Only thing was hitting a deer at night at 60mph and going airborne...another tank slapper that I rode out just as before on the HD. At least the BMW had interlocked brakes and you could never lock up the brakes.
Other than that, it was THE motorcycle and the one that I always got compliments from car drivers whilst sitting in traffic. Not as many with BMW. Maybe because I was listening to the MP3 stereo....
Now, which one would I ride again if I were foolish enough to start back? The BMW hands down.
1. Hit the front brakes and the front end dives, straight to the asphalt, damhik, it was very painful and expensive!
The front suspension of the K1200LT was designed so that this could never happen....2. The seat was diabolical after 500 miles. Almost crashed a few times on the curvy interstate in West Virginia in the rain because I was so miserable.
3. Hit the rear brake once when traffic slammed to a stop and the rear wheel skidded me into a tank slapper that I survived. On second thought, I guess it worked out to be practice for my next tank slapper on the BMW K1200LT. Only thing was hitting a deer at night at 60mph and going airborne...another tank slapper that I rode out just as before on the HD. At least the BMW had interlocked brakes and you could never lock up the brakes.
Other than that, it was THE motorcycle and the one that I always got compliments from car drivers whilst sitting in traffic. Not as many with BMW. Maybe because I was listening to the MP3 stereo....
Now, which one would I ride again if I were foolish enough to start back? The BMW hands down.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I had a really funny experience with a Harley Dave. I was sitting in the traffic and a station wagon with your typical family was sitting next to me at the lights. Their teenage daughter was sitting in the back eyeing my Harley up and down until her mother noticed this dangerous behaviour and turned around and gave the girl an absolute earful ... then glared at me!
Eric L
Established
I had a Bullet for a few years... worked fine, but it needed tinkering regularly. The hands will get dirty more often than not. If you enjoy that sort of thing. It's fine. They aren't that complicated. Problems can usually pinpointed fairly quickly and the parts aren't that expensive to being with. I even spent a day converting the odd afterthought linkages that made it into a left side shift, back to the proper English right side shift. Oil and grease everywhere, but it was fun. And the shifting felt more solid afterwards (after all it was designed with that side in mind). Again, only if you like that sort of thing. =)
But I gave it up after a few years and picked up a Kawi W650. And I'm sorry to say that my hands and fingernails are dirty no more....
But I gave it up after a few years and picked up a Kawi W650. And I'm sorry to say that my hands and fingernails are dirty no more....