leicashot
Well-known
Hi everyone, we all know this pricing situation in the used market is out of control, but how about official dealers taking advantage of this and pricing used, demo and/or certified pre-owned stock above Leica's official list price. A list price is set for a reason, so wouldn't the reason entail something along the lines of 'protection' for buyers?
From what I can tell it isn't illegal, but is it ethically fair? And if prices drop again, would you buy from retailers taking part in this?
I am seeing this all over the place, except for two retailers. Popflash and Precision Camera (both sponsors) appear to be doing the right thing, but should this be tolerated by us consumers, and do you think there is anything we can do?
Also on the flip side, if retailers sell at list or below, there is a good chance that opportunists will buy the stock to turn it over at a profit, sometimes greater than originally made by the retailer.
What are your thoughts?
From what I can tell it isn't illegal, but is it ethically fair? And if prices drop again, would you buy from retailers taking part in this?
I am seeing this all over the place, except for two retailers. Popflash and Precision Camera (both sponsors) appear to be doing the right thing, but should this be tolerated by us consumers, and do you think there is anything we can do?
Also on the flip side, if retailers sell at list or below, there is a good chance that opportunists will buy the stock to turn it over at a profit, sometimes greater than originally made by the retailer.
What are your thoughts?
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Used equipment is supply and demand. Quite a lot out-of-production used gear sells for more than it's original list price.
Now- retailers selling in-production equipment at higher-than-retail prices? The Fuji x100 comes to mind. Once production meets demand, expect prices to stabilize. The problem with out-of-production equipment: prices come down when demand drops off.
I paid $67 for my canon 50/1.5 in LTM. I could sell it for $500. And a pair of Canon 50/0.95's for $200 each. They are over $2000 now, not bad appreciation for 6 years.
Just to add, I miss $50 Jupiter-3's and $90 Zeiss Sonnars. Take a look at a 10 year old Shutterbug or other price guide.
Now- retailers selling in-production equipment at higher-than-retail prices? The Fuji x100 comes to mind. Once production meets demand, expect prices to stabilize. The problem with out-of-production equipment: prices come down when demand drops off.
I paid $67 for my canon 50/1.5 in LTM. I could sell it for $500. And a pair of Canon 50/0.95's for $200 each. They are over $2000 now, not bad appreciation for 6 years.
Just to add, I miss $50 Jupiter-3's and $90 Zeiss Sonnars. Take a look at a 10 year old Shutterbug or other price guide.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
As long as an official Leica dealer sticks to retail pricing on 'in production' items there is little that can be done about the scalping that may go on with used items unfortunately.
Hopefully that type of behaviour will come back to bite them on the arse when things change ... as they do!
Hopefully that type of behaviour will come back to bite them on the arse when things change ... as they do!
Joe AC
Well-known
MSRP stands for manufactures SUGGESTED retail price. The price is suggested and its up to the dealer to price as they see fit. All we can do as consumers is not to buy overpriced items. I don't agree with it but thats the way the game has always been played.
Joe
Joe
Out of production equipment, in demand, prices are going up.
Prices from used shops, and prices from individuals.
On RFF, less "buddy-pricing" than there used to be- but it still occurs. last time I put up a lens it sold in 1 minute. Probably could have asked for more.
But I do not rely on income from selling camera gear, camera shops do and the economy is tough.
I've seen stuff that I worked on go for some high prices...
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25402&highlight=jupiter
Prices from used shops, and prices from individuals.
On RFF, less "buddy-pricing" than there used to be- but it still occurs. last time I put up a lens it sold in 1 minute. Probably could have asked for more.
But I do not rely on income from selling camera gear, camera shops do and the economy is tough.
I've seen stuff that I worked on go for some high prices...
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25402&highlight=jupiter
kzphoto
Well-known
The only dealer I know honoring the 'regular' MSRP is Camera West. If you follow their used prices everything is always listed below the retail price -- even the new 35/50 Lux ASPH lenses.
leicashot
Well-known
That's true Joe, and I understand the principal for out of production gear, but I'm seeing dealers selling their demo (current production) stock at used market prices. So its easy for them to open the box and call it used.
seakayaker1
Well-known
I really have not seen dealers doing the price scalping.
The closest may be Adorama in their used section which often lists lens at their highest rating of 'D' well over retail price. So you end up paying more then what a brand new lens would cost without the warranty or Leica Passport. Then again Photo Village also has had some used lenses for prices well over retail as well.
The people that appear to have bought lens to just turn around and scalp them like a game ticket for a large profit has upset me more. There is no good reason to be upset but it does anyway. If they can make money, well good for them, it just does not sit well for me. The only thing I can do is remember who they are and choose not buy from them in the future.
I have been mostly patient and picked up a 50 lux and 75 cron new at retail prices, so it can be done. I picked up a used 35 lux earlier in the year that I felt I over paid for but often see them fetching a much higher price now. It was after buying the 35 Lux that I was determined to be patient and wait until I could get the lenses I wanted at retail price and with a warranty.
. . . . . nothing but a rant and venting.
May you all find the lenses of your dreams at a fair price!
The closest may be Adorama in their used section which often lists lens at their highest rating of 'D' well over retail price. So you end up paying more then what a brand new lens would cost without the warranty or Leica Passport. Then again Photo Village also has had some used lenses for prices well over retail as well.
The people that appear to have bought lens to just turn around and scalp them like a game ticket for a large profit has upset me more. There is no good reason to be upset but it does anyway. If they can make money, well good for them, it just does not sit well for me. The only thing I can do is remember who they are and choose not buy from them in the future.
I have been mostly patient and picked up a 50 lux and 75 cron new at retail prices, so it can be done. I picked up a used 35 lux earlier in the year that I felt I over paid for but often see them fetching a much higher price now. It was after buying the 35 Lux that I was determined to be patient and wait until I could get the lenses I wanted at retail price and with a warranty.
. . . . . nothing but a rant and venting.
May you all find the lenses of your dreams at a fair price!
I haven't seen Precision sell Leica for over list, but I have seen them sell X100s for over list. Not when I was there, tho, haha. 
Of course, there is always a waiting list at retail for Leica. When there was a waiting list for the X100 it was at retail.
Basically I don't have any problem with any dealer selling anything for whatever price they want to put on it. I always have a choice of declining it, or accepting it.
If a dealer put a price BELOW list, would anyone have a problem with that?? If so, then why is selling above list verboten?
Now there is one dealer, who shall remain nameless, who often advertises items as used, when they are not. Earlier this year there was a slew of ebay auctions for multiple Leica lenses that were supposedly 'used, estate sale, never mounted on a camera.' There were so many of them I was curious if buying Leica was a death sentence... The reason for this, is because they were selling BELOW the Leica MAP (minimum advertised price.) So they were claiming the lens to be used on the auction, but if you called them on the phone, they'd explain it was actually new, unused...a sneaky way to break MAP rules.
Of course, there is always a waiting list at retail for Leica. When there was a waiting list for the X100 it was at retail.Basically I don't have any problem with any dealer selling anything for whatever price they want to put on it. I always have a choice of declining it, or accepting it.
If a dealer put a price BELOW list, would anyone have a problem with that?? If so, then why is selling above list verboten?
Now there is one dealer, who shall remain nameless, who often advertises items as used, when they are not. Earlier this year there was a slew of ebay auctions for multiple Leica lenses that were supposedly 'used, estate sale, never mounted on a camera.' There were so many of them I was curious if buying Leica was a death sentence...
The reason for this, is because they were selling BELOW the Leica MAP (minimum advertised price.) So they were claiming the lens to be used on the auction, but if you called them on the phone, they'd explain it was actually new, unused...a sneaky way to break MAP rules.
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enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
Well I've seen dealers sell "certified pre-owned with warranty like new" that sure looked like new lenses to me. They were listed way above retail as well. Naturally I thought they were selling new as used to avoid the MSRP of new items. Unfortunately it was a dealer already mentioned in this thread as being forthcoming. I dare not name names
I also fear that this "new way" reflects the way OPEC works by controlling production to increase price relative to demand. As many people have feared, I see Leica using this as a justification to raise new prices.
I also fear that this "new way" reflects the way OPEC works by controlling production to increase price relative to demand. As many people have feared, I see Leica using this as a justification to raise new prices.
Pfreddee
Well-known
And the operative word in all cases is "customer", not "consumer". On the one hand, a customer is one who is discriminating and careful in his/her purchases. If the item is perceived as too expensive , they'll postpone purchasing the item. On the other hand, a consumer is like a shark, mindlessly gobbling anything in sight and roiling the water with its tail...
With best regards,
Pfreddee(Stephen)
With best regards,
Pfreddee(Stephen)
enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
Nice distinction. It would seem that consumers outnumber customers by a healthy margin these days!
Of course if you had bought gold and silver a year ago you would have the spare change to pick this stuff up.
Has silver hit $50 an ounce yet? When the Hunt Brothers drove it up last time I paid for a semester of college with $19 in pocket change.
Just checked... $almost $43 per oz. Glad i did not sell at $30...
I wonder what you can buy for $100 in pocket change these days.
Has silver hit $50 an ounce yet? When the Hunt Brothers drove it up last time I paid for a semester of college with $19 in pocket change.
Just checked... $almost $43 per oz. Glad i did not sell at $30...
I wonder what you can buy for $100 in pocket change these days.
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enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
Silver and Gold will continue to climb. This is not a bubble. This is the reality of the world's fiat currencies being recognized for the worthless paper that they are. But I digress
Well I've seen dealers sell "certified pre-owned with warranty like new" that sure looked like new lenses to me. They were listed way above retail as well. Naturally I thought they were selling new as used to avoid the MSRP of new items. Unfortunately it was a dealer already mentioned in this thread as being forthcoming. I dare not name names
I also fear that this "new way" reflects the way OPEC works by controlling production to increase price relative to demand. As many people have feared, I see Leica using this as a justification to raise new prices.
I don't think there is any rule in a dealer agreement against selling above MSRP.
Hopefully Leica will get the production levels increased, without sacrificing quality.
Silver and Gold will continue to climb. This is not a bubble. This is the reality of the world's fiat currencies being recognized for the worthless paper that they are. But I digress
Silver and gold are always worth the same, it's the currencies that decline.
enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
Maybe not. But if not, why the deception then of selling it as "used like new". Why not just mark your new stock at a higher price to reflect the current market? It's the underhanded dealings that chaps my ass.
enochRoot
a chymist of some repute
True. And the currencies are declining big time these days. This is the "adjustment" (always found that term funny) of a lifetime.
Damn!
I just missed out buying a Leica MP for less than $100 in pocket change.
Silver Dollars, that is...
I just missed out buying a Leica MP for less than $100 in pocket change.
Silver Dollars, that is...
Maybe the dealer pulls the warranty card and sells for more, so they can bundle it with a used lens they take In trade and sell it as new