Roger Hicks
Veteran
Addy101
Well-known
I guess you weren't the target audience for Nikon. The camera you describe is aimed at pro photographers, but the Df wasn't. Also, it would be much more expensive, loosing more of its appeal.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
If I take my own personal biases and preferences out of the equation, then I can at least try to understand why. What about those who like the more 'analog' style and approach of the Df (which some egocentrics might refer to as 'real' image making) yet have issues with eyesight and cannot manually focus very easily. Or what if the subject matter lends itself to better (and faster) focusing success with the aid of auto focus but yet one still prefers the overall design and function of the Df. Or what about those who like the style of the Df and happen to have some current AFS-G lenses and want to use them with the Df but don't really like using the manual focusing ring on those particular lenses (they aren't as nicely damped compared to the better manual focusing rings of the legacy MF Nikkors.)
There are certainly many personal reasons why someone might like to have the option of both AF and MF and on a body style that they happen to prefer (and with an excellent sensor.) The Df was designed to be used either automatically (including measuring exposure) or manually, depending on the users needs and their preferences.
And MF versus AF has nothing to do with 'real' image making. AF is an aid and if used conscientiously can be sometimes very beneficial. Or maybe 'real' image making can only be done with a lens that doesn't even have an automatic iris, and all 'real' photography must be produced using stopped down lenses?
JHP
Well-known
I'm sorry, I have no opinion on manual focusing on the DF. I almost NEVER use it, but that may change once I receive me split prism focusing screen.
I actually meant I never use anything other than Manual exposure mode, in response to the guy that says using aperture priority is easiest with manual focus lenses. If one buys a DF, one would assume they bought it for that lovely shutter speed dial and using aperture rings on their lenses (If applicable), as this is really the only thing that differentiates the DF from any other Nikon. If one bought a DF only to use it in auto mode, why not buy any other DSLR?
VertovSvilova
Well-known
Got it, thanks for explaining. I was still responding to the issue at the top of the thread where there was the suggestion of leaving the camera in AF mode for manual focusing rather than M mode since supposedly the green dot confirmation is more precise while on AF. Hence my thoughts were still on M mode as in manual focusing (and what many Df owners and potential buyers seem often concerned about, i.e., the practicality of using MF legacy lenses.)
Although I personally do like to take advantage of the A mode most of the time with my F3 with its full complement of top plate numbered dials. I'll usually just use the exposure compensation dial to make any exposure adjustments. The F3's A mode allows for quick use in certain situations (after all it was marketed as a photojournalist's tool; e.g., the F3P.) And if I had bought the Df I would most likely still use it as I do my F3 (and my Nikon DSLRs), i.e., in A mode primarily and only in M mode when doing certain specialty work or critical work with more time allowance, etc..
Highway 61
Revisited
I still have to be convinced that setting the Df to M then turning the speeds selector dial to select the operator-chosen shutter speed is more convenient that setting a "conventional" DSLR to M then turning the coding wheel to select the operator-chosen shutter speed.
First case, you see the speed on the shutter speeds dial ; second case, you see the speed on the large, clear, LCD top panel.
In the VF, things are absolutely 100% identical, whichever camera you have.
The Df is an electronic digital camera. Among the Nikon film SLRs it's said to be inspired from, the models featured with an electronic shutter (FE, FG, EM, FA, FE-2) all had a 100% mechanical emergency speed which could be selected on the shutter speeds selector (either 1/90 or 1/250) so that the shutter would work without battery. Plus, of course, the B speed, which worked without battery too.
On the F3, there was a mechanical emergency 1/60 speed as well, yet not chosen on the main speeds selector but triggered by switching a small lever on the camera front plate, between the grip and the lens.
So - with those cameras, if you had a battery problem, you could still shoot at either 1/90, 1/250 or 1/60 and simulate slow speeds using B.
The Df will not work without battery - no way.
So, the advantage of the external analog speeds dial over the large, clear and even illuminated LCD panels of the other DSLRs isn't obvious and it's only a matter of slight different ergonomics and operator's personal taste.
Of course, this mediocre answer of mine wasn't elaborated after some thought fluid enough.
I've been using 100% mechanical cameras with analog external shutter speeds dials for decades and it's still that kind of tool which I use for film. And - they're even meterless...
So - I'm not too sure, if I'm qualified enough to speak of cameras ergonomics when it comes to comment the Df...
I take you point very well, yet I'm still thinking that using the M mode with a digital camera isn't that convenient in daily use, because digital exposure is way more critical than film exposure, so that exposure errors in M mode will be more numerous. If those errors result as clipped highlights, it will be very difficult to recover them in post-processing, which may ruin an otherwise good shot.
Things are different in the studio, but I wonder how many of us mainly shoot in the studio.
Hmmm. It's already the most expensive Nikon DSLR (D3s and D4 excepted). Even the D750 is cheaper. I don't see why it should have been even more expensive if it had been released with really exceptional ergonomics and build quality, but with less pointless features regarding what it was said to be.
Back in the "old school" days, there were less price tag and build quality differences between the flagship of the Nikon fleet, the F3 HP, and the FM2n.
The Df design and production are clearly a victim of nowadays' marketing woes.
x-ray
Veteran
At the end of the day with a Df and your Ai and Ai-S lenses you will find yourself leaving the camera on A for more than 99% of the time, and you will use the center-weighted exposure mode coupled to the half-depressed shutter button exposure lock technique and permanently set the exposure compensation to -1/3 to minimize the risk of clipping the highlights.
So, the Df won't do anything for you which a D610 can't...
Wrong. At the end of the first year I've only put the camera on auto exposure once or twice just to see how good it is. In 99.9% of my shooting I use manual everything even on my Df and D800 with manual and auto focus lenses. It's simply my nature and relates to the work that I do.
I've been a full time professional for going on 48 years and analog dials are what I evolved with as well as manual mode. Manual mode is what works best for both my business work in the studio and on location. Manual is my preference for my personal work too. The beauty of having auto features is it's there if you need it. Some situations change so quickly that it's near impossible to concentrate on the subject and maintaining correct exposure and focus at the same time. I've had many shoots like this over my career.
I've been a pilot for several decades. A mode on the camera is much like autopilot. Autopilot relieves the workload while concentrating on other aspects of the flight. A good example is while flying instruments in clouds. Autopilot allows me to monitor systems, navigation and relieves fatigue under heavy workloads and changing conditions. Auto focus and exposure allow concentration on what the subject is doing, releases workload and makes changes to focus and exposure faster than I can.
Like autopilot I rarely use auto anything because I still love the process of flying and making photography but auto is there if I need it. Even with autopilot and auto exposure you still have to be fully aware of what the aircraft or camera is doing. You can't go to sleep. No system is perfect and auto will not think for you.
Don't try to speak for everyone, you're not qualified.
Highway 61
Revisited
This is what you're doing while telling you're a pro and a pilot, while other idiots aren't.
What you wrote about the A mode and your comparisons with piloting a plane rather applies to the P mode. In A mode you select the aperture then the camera applies the matching speed but you perfectly know what speed you are using because it's displayed in the VF and on the external LCD displays, even on the Df. If you meter where it ought to be then lock the metering and re-compose, this allows you to personally control all the parameters in an heartbeat, particularly when using MF lenses : focus point, metering, aperture, speed, composition.
With the A mode it's extremely fast to chose another speed by selecting another... aperture. And you know this.
What's next ? Comparing using a camera with mastering the space shuttle during its come-back into the atmosphere ?
x-ray
Veteran
In my experience I find manual mode more accurate because I'm making the decision and adjusting as needed. Auto won't give very good exposures if you're shooting all dark or all light subjects. Just try using auto and photograph a black subject on a black background or people in white on a white background.
As to mechanical speeds on a battery dependent camera, no digital camera will work without a battery. It's never going to happen.
As to mechanical speeds on a battery dependent camera, no digital camera will work without a battery. It's never going to happen.
x-ray
Veteran
What is your problem? I thought you were going to read with no more comment. Go take your meds.
Highway 61
Revisited
This is why experienced photographers using the A mode always look for something close to the 18% grey somewhere in difficult situations, then meter on this area, lock the metering, then recompose.
If you don't do this, even the M mode won't help you. The M mode using the built-in meter of the camera isn't anything more than a metering mode asking you to manually select the speed which the camera built-in meter recommends.
Of course you can deliberately chose to under or over expose, but in this case the -2 to +2 exposure compensation dial will work as well.
I know very well that this technique has some limits and that beyond them, for extremely difficult situations, using an hand-held meter and the M mode will be the only viable solution.
But this has nothing to do with either the A or M modes respective abilities.
Strangely enough I am not aware of having any problem nor meds to take. I will ask my doctor next time I meet him by chance at the airport, though.
x-ray
Veteran
You are so helpfull. I'm not sure how I made it through my career without this bit of information.
I'd love to see some of your work illustrating your skills and knowledge. Any link to your art? Teaching by example is always best.
If you're interested you can see my amateur work by clicking on the link at the bottom or visit my website at www.x-rayarts.com
I may have missed it but I don't remember you saying how long you used the Df? I would assume from your knowledge you've used one for months.
Highway 61
Revisited
Ha, at last the good old "Look at my beautiful pics and show your crappy ones so that we'll see if you're qualified to post about this or that on a photo webforum".
Why some of the Df owners can't bear that some other people write what they think of this camera, and its pros and cons when compared with other DSLRs of the same ballpark, plus pointing out what's wrong with the marketing hype (now deflated afterall) while not telling it's a bad camera at all, is beyond me.
Or - do you belong to the design team ?
dasuess
Nikon Freak
The above was what Robert the the OP was looking for when he posted. Can we get back to that?
JHP
Well-known
My final thought would be, if you are a working photographer, consider something else. The lacking auto focus in low light, annoying ergonomics (like having to dismount from tripod to access battery and SD cards every time), lack of 2nd SD card slot, low capacity batteries, less comfortable to hold for long periods of time with heavy lenses and a big flash, lack of 8000th shutter speed, etc.
If you use the DF as a hobby camera primarily, on the move it is light, fast (in good light anyway), and used in manual exposure mode you will find it simple to use and there will be little difference moving from analogue bodies to the DF. By switching the LCD off and buying a split screen focusing screen, the DF more or less turns into a Leica M edition 60 or any other analogue film camera. I have found using manual focus lenses on it to be more or less useless, that green dot is far too small and too far out of the frame to use quickly and effectively. This is why I have invested in a new focusing screen, so that I can accurately manually focus during music concerts when the auto focus inevitably fails me.
This is my opinion from my use with the DF. Overall I love it, and I think it is perfectly suited to lovers of analogue photography, and with a split prism focusing screen from the factory, I think the DF would have been a classic camera.
I wouldn't buy it for professional use where speed is a factor, but then, it was never designed for that purpose anyway. People either love or hate this camera, I bought it for my needs, as I had been waiting for a camera like it for a long time, and I could never afford a digital Leica body.
If you use the DF as a hobby camera primarily, on the move it is light, fast (in good light anyway), and used in manual exposure mode you will find it simple to use and there will be little difference moving from analogue bodies to the DF. By switching the LCD off and buying a split screen focusing screen, the DF more or less turns into a Leica M edition 60 or any other analogue film camera. I have found using manual focus lenses on it to be more or less useless, that green dot is far too small and too far out of the frame to use quickly and effectively. This is why I have invested in a new focusing screen, so that I can accurately manually focus during music concerts when the auto focus inevitably fails me.
This is my opinion from my use with the DF. Overall I love it, and I think it is perfectly suited to lovers of analogue photography, and with a split prism focusing screen from the factory, I think the DF would have been a classic camera.
I wouldn't buy it for professional use where speed is a factor, but then, it was never designed for that purpose anyway. People either love or hate this camera, I bought it for my needs, as I had been waiting for a camera like it for a long time, and I could never afford a digital Leica body.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
JHP
Well-known
Absolutely, it should arrive in a couple of days, then I will let you know my first impressions, and then come back after I have used it after a couple of weeks, and on the job etc.
angelog
formerly agianelo
Anyone tried one of these?:
http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/19/the-first-nikon-df-focusing-screens-are-now-available-online.aspx/
http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/19/the-first-nikon-df-focusing-screens-are-now-available-online.aspx/
JHP
Well-known
This is exactly what I have ordered. I will let everyone know how it goes.
http://www.focusingscreen.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_139&products_id=1242
I have heard these screens are dimmer than the stock screen, so hopefully it's not too bad!
