OT: Rates - Unusual Situation - Advice?

[bmattock]

Got a call from a friend who works for the city several nights ago in a management position. She was hosting a community outreach type forum at a city building and had asked the local paper to send over a photographer to cover the event - the local paper had agreed, but never showed. The event was in progress when she called me.

Could I come over, take photos of the event, and bill the city? Right now, this instant? Sure.

I did *not*...

a) ask for a purchase order number.
b) negotiate an hourly rate.
c) negotiate rights to publication of the photos.
d) state a fee upfront.

Sigh.

What I did was to grab my camera and head out the door.

I arrived, took a total of 70 photos with my DSLR, including shots of the audience, speakers, city employees, and so on. I was asked to stay afterwards to take posed shots of city employees, which I did.

I was there roughly an hour, maybe a bit longer. I spent two hours processing the shots and preparing a CD-ROM, which I delivered to my friend the next morning.

She is very pleased and asked me to submit an invoice. I asked her if she wanted to give me a P.O. number, she said no, just give her the invoice on my company letterhead and she'd take care of it. She also said that she has given the photos to another city employee who is working with the newspaper to put together a news story featuring my photos.

I asked her if she thought that $200 was reasonable for the service I provided, she responded that she thought $100 was much more reasonable and in line with what she expected to pay.

I'm ok with that - but I don't want to set a baseline of expectation for future jobs with the city that hurts me financially. However, I also don't want to offend and risk not getting called again. Argh. I really think that $200 is not unreasonable for my time and the fact that I responded instantly at 8:30 pm, abandoning my dinner and off to the races I went.

We also didn't discuss who owns the photos - so I'm prepared to wave bye-bye to the copyright, assuming I even own the copyright in this mess.

Anybody want to venture their opinion on:

a) What I did wrong?
b) What to do right in the future?
c) What to do now?

I'd sure appreciate it. I'm such a knucklehead sometimes...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

the number that jumped into my head as I first read your involvement was $200.. (and that was the price you give to a friend).. so I don't think you're out of line

but, as you probably know already, it's not worth arguing over and ruining a friendship.. I'd just be nice and say "sure, I'll charge you $100 this time.. but just for future reference, I'd ask $200 for similar work in the future".. make sure you smile and act really friendly as you say it

then forget what she paid you this time so that you don't dwell on it.. after all, you made $100 that night when you didn't expect it

 

[back alley]

dear knucklehead,

you didn't do anything wrong, yet.

i went through this kind of thing years ago also. i was getting known in some small circles and getting calls to do this or that.

for me, and this is the short answer, it was confusing, awkward and uncomfortable till i made some decisions.

what was i?
what were my intentions?
how did i want to procede.

my answers were,

i was an amateur shooter but good enought to earn some money at it.
i wanted to make part time money at it
i needed to set up a price scale, letter head, invoices, cards, etc.

i thereafter referred to my price list for jobs but was flexible because i was doing work with friends, musicians and actors and theatre groups who were notoiously poor.
but they knew what my prices were and that they were 'gettin a deal', so to speak.

now, i just say no to all offers...much happier.

joe

 

[bmattock]

the number that jumped into my head as I first read your involvement was $200.. (and that was the price you give to a friend).. so I don't think you're out of line

but, as you probably know already, it's not worth arguing over and ruining a friendship.. I'd just be nice and say "sure, I'll charge you $100 this time.. but just for future reference, I'd ask $200 for similar work in the future".. make sure you smile and act really friendly as you say it

then forget what she paid you this time so that you don't dwell on it.. after all, you made $100 that night when you didn't expect it

That sounds like really good advice. And no way do I want to ruin a friendship over it. I'm not the type to dwell on it, though.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

dear knucklehead,

you didn't do anything wrong, yet.

i went through this kind of thing years ago also. i was getting known in some small circles and getting calls to do this or that.

for me, and this is the short answer, it was confusing, awkward and uncomfortable till i made some decisions.

what was i?
what were my intentions?
how did i want to procede.

my answers were,

i was an amateur shooter but good enought to earn some money at it.
i wanted to make part time money at it
i needed to set up a price scale, letter head, invoices, cards, etc.

i thereafter referred to my price list for jobs but was flexible because i was doing work with friends, musicians and actors and theatre groups who were notoiously poor.
but they knew what my prices were and that they were 'gettin a deal', so to speak.

now, i just say no to all offers...much happier.

joe

Joe,

Excellent points! I have already made part of that decision - earlier this year, I made the decision that I am a part-time professional photographer/writer. The fact that I will be getting a 1099 form for a story/photos I sold to a local magazine made my mind up - if I'm going to pay taxes on what I got paid, then I'm a pro. If I'm a pro, I'm also going to keep track of and deduct my legitimate business expenses from my revenue for tax purposes.

What I did *not* do - as you rightly point out - is make a price scale. Good Lord, I'm not even sure where to begin. I have business cards, though. I impress myself (grin)!

OK, so good advice for the future.

Thanks!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[back alley]

even if you start out with a 'day rate' or package prices, it's a good start.

i knew a guy who printed small newsletter type publications for different trades.
he asked me once to go to a large construction site, photograpgh some construction machinery (advertisers) and he wanted maybe 3 prints.

we never talked price.

i charged for my time plus prints.

he did not like the price.
he was a gentleman, told me he would pay me but would never use me again.
he wanted to pay 10 bucks per shot and i charged that plus a half day rate, i think 50 bucks at the time.

maybe i shot myself in the foot but i really wasn't prepared to work for 10 bucks a print.

joe

 

[bmattock]

even if you start out with a 'day rate' or package prices, it's a good start.

i knew a guy who printed small newsletter type publications for different trades.
he asked me once to go to a large construction site, photograpgh some construction machinery (advertisers) and he wanted maybe 3 prints.

we never talked price.

i charged for my time plus prints.

he did not like the price.
he was a gentleman, told me he would pay me but would never use me again.
he wanted to pay 10 bucks per shot and i charged that plus a half day rate, i think 50 bucks at the time.

maybe i shot myself in the foot but i really wasn't prepared to work for 10 bucks a print.

joe

Joe, I fully understand. In my case, I don't want the city to pay grudgingly and then never use me again, so I'm willing to be flexible. I was over at NPPA's website, and they note that "Industry standard has been that a freelance news assignment includes one-time publication rights. Without a written agreement to the contrary, this is what you are licensing." Since I'm willing to just let them do what they want with the photos and not pay me again for subsequent use, I think $200 is fair given that - but I won't argue with her - $100 is enough given the circumstances.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

Difficult situation Bill. As purely a personal opinion ...

1) take the $100, but clearly indicate that you are doing so at a discount as a courtesy to her/City as a first assignment. That way you make clear that your rate is actually much higher than the courtesy that you are extending to them this time.

2) always get things on paper, if not at least orally (statute of frauds permits oral agreements performed within 1 year)

3) if you foresee doing more business, chalk this one up to business development. If nothing else, you have shown your new clients that you are at least more dependable than their old photographer ;-)

Good luck

 

[bmattock]

Tom - thanks for the advice - well taken!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[ZeissFan]

Bill, I'd probably come up with an hourly rate. When I do camera repair, I quote $25/hour and then decide how long it will take for a repair. I don't do it for a living, so I'll generally cap it at $75 or $100, depending on the camera, unless it's a total overhaul

I think $20-$25/hour for a non-pro would be OK. That would cover the time of the event + time spent post-processing photos.

Freelancers sometimes get mileage; sometimes they don't. Some just get a flat fee per event.

 

[JoeFriday]

btw, something I forgot to mention before.. this is NOT an unusual situation.. it's happened to me several times in my freelance graphic design business.. and probably would happen to me if I advertised photography as a service, too

if you don't project yourself as a professional, everyone seems to think that means you can be hired cheap and without warning.. it's not just your friend

 

[canonetc]

Great advice here, Bill, not much more too add except check the tax requirements for freelancers. I think (I hope) that you do not have to claim the first $500.00 earned in a year.

You could also go to Editorial Photographers Online and look at their sample contracts for freelancers. Keep in mind they were written FULLY to the photographer's advantage due to bad magazine behavior. All contracts are negotiable, however. You may want to draft something simple for yourself using their guidelines, or just use your client's contract, crossing out what you cannot agree to (which is legal; they just have to agree to your omissions!).

Cheers and good luck

Chris
canonetc

 

[canonetc]

Correction: I think the freelancer no-need-to-report tax level is the first $250.00 per calendar year.

Chris
canonetc

 

[bmattock]

Great advice here, Bill, not much more too add except check the tax requirements for freelancers. I think (I hope) that you do not have to claim the first $500.00 earned in a year.

You could also go to Editorial Photographers Online and look at their sample contracts for freelancers. Keep in mind they were written FULLY to the photographer's advantage due to bad magazine behavior. All contracts are negotiable, however. You may want to draft something simple for yourself using their guidelines, or just use your client's contract, crossing out what you cannot agree to (which is legal; they just have to agree to your omissions!).

Cheers and good luck

Chris
canonetc

Great information, and thanks! However, I plan to claim all revenue I made this year and pay taxes on it. Why? Because I spent a fortune setting this business up. Cameras, lenses, film, processing, and so on. Mileage and a brand new SUV that I can depreciate (75% business use, 25% personal use). Hotels and meals for trips to photograph so I could take photos to try to sell and write stories about the travel itself and try to sell that. In other words, I have a ton of expenses to write off against my revenue and expect to lose a monstrous amount of money this year on my new business.

I am aware that the IRS takes a dim view of people claiming hobbies as businesses - more than three out of any five years of net losses, and they may classify you as a 'hobby' instead of a business - then you've got trouble. But I hope to make money - and I won't make a profit the first year - few businesses do. So this year is a big fat write-off against my actual income (day job).

I've done a lot of research on this end of it. I am not in favor of cheating the IRS on taxes, and although it 'feels' sneaky, it is not - if I am legitimately running a sideline business here, my qualified business expenses are an offset against revenue, and that's the way the rules work. So yes, I will lose a bundle this year - and that's ok, tax-wise.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks