Räuber
Well-known
Some might know my overview of all regular Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 versions. I created a second overview featuring the Sonnar 5cm f/2. Here it is.
vividlyfading.blogspot.com
It shows all regular versions I could find over the years of this vintage lens. I excluded all prototypes, so called fakes and Frankenstein lenses, customized examples or variations produced because of fabrication inconsistency.
The guide is not finished yet. When you look into it you might notice that the explanations are missing. I will add this later. Consider this overview as work in progress. It might take some time to finish it. There is still a lot to do.
You will find a link to a spread sheet with a complete overview of all regular versions and their technical data too. Feel free to use this data.
When you find some strange inconsistencies, missing or wrong information then let me know. There are some holes in this overview I might not be able to fill. So any help is appreciated. Enjoy the documentation. It might be useful for some collectors and photographers here.
A small note. Unfortunately Google is not finding my blog and the overviews. So people looking up the Sonnar 5cm will not find it. (Google does not show a Google blog???) To bad since I created it especially for all those people that find a Sonnar 5cm by chance and want to know what they have there. Fortunately Google shows threads from this forum. So I will keep pushing this thread so people can find the overview.
Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/2 - regular Versions and Specs
This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 and some of its derivatives. Further below you...
vividlyfading.blogspot.com
It shows all regular versions I could find over the years of this vintage lens. I excluded all prototypes, so called fakes and Frankenstein lenses, customized examples or variations produced because of fabrication inconsistency.
The guide is not finished yet. When you look into it you might notice that the explanations are missing. I will add this later. Consider this overview as work in progress. It might take some time to finish it. There is still a lot to do.
You will find a link to a spread sheet with a complete overview of all regular versions and their technical data too. Feel free to use this data.
When you find some strange inconsistencies, missing or wrong information then let me know. There are some holes in this overview I might not be able to fill. So any help is appreciated. Enjoy the documentation. It might be useful for some collectors and photographers here.
A small note. Unfortunately Google is not finding my blog and the overviews. So people looking up the Sonnar 5cm will not find it. (Google does not show a Google blog???) To bad since I created it especially for all those people that find a Sonnar 5cm by chance and want to know what they have there. Fortunately Google shows threads from this forum. So I will keep pushing this thread so people can find the overview.
Wow. Now I have to pull out all my 50/2 Sonnar formula lenses...
You have Sonnar lenses from other companies- any interest in the Nikkor and Tanar 5cm F2?
You have Sonnar lenses from other companies- any interest in the Nikkor and Tanar 5cm F2?
TenEleven
Well-known
The early collapsible Nikkors (up to 806x) should be especially interesting to you Rauber since they are made wholly then partially from Shott glass. So they are basically a Japanese recreation of the German lens using (mostly) German materials.
I have a 806x LTM collapsible and it's rendition is indeed different from it's later brethren. I'd say it's closest in rendering to a black and nickel era Sonnar.
Which is unlike my 5005x Tokyo Nikkor 50/1.4 which draws exactly like my later 3xxx Tokyo Nikkor or the even later Japan one. People say these early ones use Shott glass too but I never saw that borne out in their rendering.
I have a 806x LTM collapsible and it's rendition is indeed different from it's later brethren. I'd say it's closest in rendering to a black and nickel era Sonnar.
Which is unlike my 5005x Tokyo Nikkor 50/1.4 which draws exactly like my later 3xxx Tokyo Nikkor or the even later Japan one. People say these early ones use Shott glass too but I never saw that borne out in their rendering.
TenEleven
Well-known
Also one thing I want to point out in your page - a small omission:
The post-war 3million lenses are decidedly not the war-time calculation. I am near 100% certain of this. I have seen cut models and the curvatures and radii of the glass are very different. You also can not cross substitute elements in them which you can with wartime and pre-war lenses. The same goes for the f1.5 version, by the way.
Sadly I do not have photoshop on my work machine here or I could bend the perspective and superimpose the two versions cut models. However please check the curvature of the last element before the aperture. And the curvatures of the doublet after the aperture. They are clearly different!
Pre-War:
Post-War:
The post-war 3million lenses are decidedly not the war-time calculation. I am near 100% certain of this. I have seen cut models and the curvatures and radii of the glass are very different. You also can not cross substitute elements in them which you can with wartime and pre-war lenses. The same goes for the f1.5 version, by the way.
Sadly I do not have photoshop on my work machine here or I could bend the perspective and superimpose the two versions cut models. However please check the curvature of the last element before the aperture. And the curvatures of the doublet after the aperture. They are clearly different!
Pre-War:
Post-War:
Räuber
Well-known
Thank you @Sonnar Brian I would like to get more information and details about other Sonnar 5cm f/2 lenses from other manufacturers. I haven't looked into this topic yet. I was pushing the documentation to get a first usable overview for you guys. I noticed there is some interest in it some month ago. So I was busy shooting every example I own and finishing a basic overview.
The overview is missing some of the most common post-war versions because I was concentrating on finding the rare ones first. I might add some of them later this year.
@TenEleven thank you for mentioning the history of the Nikkor and the differences of the post-war Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar. As alway it shows your expertise.
This difference is an issue. We know that the post-war CZJ Sonnar 5cm (both f2 and f1.5) does not fit the wartime bodies. When I measured the diameter of the front and rear lens it shows the same difference BUT the Fabrikationsbuch from Mr. Thiele is clear about this. The date of the optical formula did not change after the war (the date is 1st December 1933). So CZJ used the same optical design from Bertele during and after WWII. I'm not an optics expert or physician. I can not say if it is possible to use a different diameter of the lens keep the curvature and it will work out. The Fabrikationsbuch took their information from the original CZJ production cards used to produce those lenses. They should not lie. I went with this information. To clear things up we would need some optical expert?
The overview is missing some of the most common post-war versions because I was concentrating on finding the rare ones first. I might add some of them later this year.
@TenEleven thank you for mentioning the history of the Nikkor and the differences of the post-war Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar. As alway it shows your expertise.
This difference is an issue. We know that the post-war CZJ Sonnar 5cm (both f2 and f1.5) does not fit the wartime bodies. When I measured the diameter of the front and rear lens it shows the same difference BUT the Fabrikationsbuch from Mr. Thiele is clear about this. The date of the optical formula did not change after the war (the date is 1st December 1933). So CZJ used the same optical design from Bertele during and after WWII. I'm not an optics expert or physician. I can not say if it is possible to use a different diameter of the lens keep the curvature and it will work out. The Fabrikationsbuch took their information from the original CZJ production cards used to produce those lenses. They should not lie. I went with this information. To clear things up we would need some optical expert?
TenEleven
Well-known
Yeah I guess we would need some sort of optical expert to make 100% sure. The reason why I feel relatively sure that the 3million Sonnars are different is that at least the samples I have seen draw quite differently from their wartime and pre-war brothers. In a way that is not - at least again in my experience - within what I have seen in batch-to-batch changes.
That all said, it is of course true that the curvatures of the lenses also get changed for different batches of glass. Since after pouring not every block of glass was of the same quality and specifications (refractive index, dispersion, etc.) minor recalculations were performed batch to batch anyway in order to correct for these discrepancies. These calculations were usually not handled by the "big guys" but likely done by some assistant bureau, although I am not clear on the exact particulars for CZJ.
That all said, it is of course true that the curvatures of the lenses also get changed for different batches of glass. Since after pouring not every block of glass was of the same quality and specifications (refractive index, dispersion, etc.) minor recalculations were performed batch to batch anyway in order to correct for these discrepancies. These calculations were usually not handled by the "big guys" but likely done by some assistant bureau, although I am not clear on the exact particulars for CZJ.
TenEleven
Well-known
By the way there's even a German LTM (and Braun Paxette) Sonnar copy - Steinheils Quinon. From what I read the Quinons optical scheme was supposed to have been calculated by Bertele himself after he had left Zeiss and was more or less working as a freelancer and also with Wild.
Interestingly the Quinon has pretty much the exact same "close focus" mechanism as the Nikkor 5cm f2. You feel a bump, then rangefinder focus goes away and it focuses up to very close almost a full rotation of the helical. I always wondered if Steinheil came up with this and Nikon copied it or if it was the other way around.
Also there are less f2 Sonnar copies around than there are Japanese f1.5 copies. There's Nikon, there are the Tanar lenses and ... I think that's pretty much it for Japan? Maybe Brian knows another? The Fuji Cristar as well as later Fujis are Gauss type, Canon too, Minolta are all Gauss derviates. I guess the f2 version was seen as a much less prestigious lens especially in the early 50ies.
Oh and if you want to go really esoteric there's the Walz "Envoy" fixed lens camera which uses a 7-element Sonnar lens however in a realatively unambitious 4.8cm f1.9 configuration. The Sonnar diagram is even engraved on the cameras top plate! They were clearly proud of it.
Edit here's an image I stole from Kitamura's repair blog:
Interestingly the Quinon has pretty much the exact same "close focus" mechanism as the Nikkor 5cm f2. You feel a bump, then rangefinder focus goes away and it focuses up to very close almost a full rotation of the helical. I always wondered if Steinheil came up with this and Nikon copied it or if it was the other way around.
Also there are less f2 Sonnar copies around than there are Japanese f1.5 copies. There's Nikon, there are the Tanar lenses and ... I think that's pretty much it for Japan? Maybe Brian knows another? The Fuji Cristar as well as later Fujis are Gauss type, Canon too, Minolta are all Gauss derviates. I guess the f2 version was seen as a much less prestigious lens especially in the early 50ies.
Oh and if you want to go really esoteric there's the Walz "Envoy" fixed lens camera which uses a 7-element Sonnar lens however in a realatively unambitious 4.8cm f1.9 configuration. The Sonnar diagram is even engraved on the cameras top plate! They were clearly proud of it.
Edit here's an image I stole from Kitamura's repair blog:
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I have the Walz- it is a fine lens. Look at the surface behind the aperture.
I had Two optical engineers that designed optics working for me during the 90s. Changing the surface curvature and element thickness would be considered a change in the "Optical Prescription" of the lens, as Bernie would state.
I converted 1 Sonnar formula Quinon to LTM for an RFF member years ago. Also a very good lens.
I have the Nikkor 5cm F2 (s) and the Tanar 5cm F2. When not so busy- will have to do some measurements.
There are at least two J-8 variants, diameter of the optics was enlarged later on. And at least two J-8M variants.
And of course- have the Skyllaney "Bertele" Sonnar, and have shot with a second one. That means RFF members have 2 of 5 of them.
I had Two optical engineers that designed optics working for me during the 90s. Changing the surface curvature and element thickness would be considered a change in the "Optical Prescription" of the lens, as Bernie would state.
I converted 1 Sonnar formula Quinon to LTM for an RFF member years ago. Also a very good lens.
I have the Nikkor 5cm F2 (s) and the Tanar 5cm F2. When not so busy- will have to do some measurements.
There are at least two J-8 variants, diameter of the optics was enlarged later on. And at least two J-8M variants.
And of course- have the Skyllaney "Bertele" Sonnar, and have shot with a second one. That means RFF members have 2 of 5 of them.
raid
Dad Photographer
How about the Luxon 50/2, Brian? You converted it to LTM for me. Is it a Sonnar too?
I recall the name "Quinon". Have I obtained such a lens?
I recall the name "Quinon". Have I obtained such a lens?
TenEleven
Well-known
I think the Luxon is an Ernostar type - similar to the Primoplan. Since the Ernostar is the grand-daddy of the Sonnar - also made by Bertele you could say it's a Sonnar relative for sure.
That reminds me - Futura's Evar 5cm f2 is also an Ernostar type. As is the 40mm f2.8 on the Rollei 35S.
raid
Dad Photographer
Brian converted a Quinon 50 2 to ltm for me!
Is there a Quinon 50/2 for the Voigtlaender Prominent?
Is there a Quinon 50/2 for the Voigtlaender Prominent?
Räuber
Well-known
Some small updates to the guide of Sonnar 5cm f2 lenses.
vividlyfading.blogspot.com
It is a little bit annoying how inconsistent those small design changes were introduced by CZJ into production. Right in the middle of a batch some small detail changes and some lenses later another detail... German quality...
In short there are 7 black & nickel, 3 Contaflex, 8 collapsible, 7 East German and 6 West German Contax Sonnar f2's in the list. Would you have guessed those amount of differences?
You can find all those data online as spreadsheets.
Here is the current overview of all versions and production batches.
Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/2 - regular Versions and Specs
This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 and some of its derivatives. Further below you...
vividlyfading.blogspot.com
- added or replaced images for some lenses
- v3b ZJ CR ac
- v3b ZJ CR acT T
- v3b ZE CR arrb
- v4b ZO CR bz
- v4b ZO CR bzR
- added a new version
- v3b ZJ CR acT T = transition between v3b ZJ CR ac => v3b ZJ CR acT
- updated the spreadsheet with all versions
- added weight and size for lenses above
- added estimated number of lenses for every version
- updated the counted number of lenses for every version
- added an overview of all production batches of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f2 lenses
It is a little bit annoying how inconsistent those small design changes were introduced by CZJ into production. Right in the middle of a batch some small detail changes and some lenses later another detail... German quality...
In short there are 7 black & nickel, 3 Contaflex, 8 collapsible, 7 East German and 6 West German Contax Sonnar f2's in the list. Would you have guessed those amount of differences?
You can find all those data online as spreadsheets.
Here is the current overview of all versions and production batches.
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Mark240590
Soviet Shooter
I have just ordered this lens which I believe is between 1953-59 which may be useful for the list ?
Serial #1734119
Serial #1734119
Räuber
Well-known
The lens is already in the list. Line 1481.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Some might know my overview of all regular Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/1.5 versions. I created a second overview featuring the Sonnar 5cm f/2. Here it is.
Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/2 - regular Versions and Specs
This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 and some of its derivatives. Further below you...
It shows all regular versions I could find over the years of this vintage lens. I excluded all prototypes, so called fakes and Frankenstein lenses, customized examples or variations produced because of fabrication inconsistency.
The guide is not finished yet. When you look into it you might notice that the explanations are missing. I will add this later. Consider this overview as work in progress. It might take some time to finish it. There is still a lot to do.
You will find a link to a spread sheet with a complete overview of all regular versions and their technical data too. Feel free to use this data.
When you find some strange inconsistencies, missing or wrong information then let me know. There are some holes in this overview I might not be able to fill. So any help is appreciated. Enjoy the documentation. It might be useful for some collectors and photographers here.
A small note. Unfortunately Google is not finding my blog and the overviews. So people looking up the Sonnar 5cm will not find it. (Google does not show a Google blog???) To bad since I created it especially for all those people that find a Sonnar 5cm by chance and want to know what they have there. Fortunately Google shows threads from this forum. So I will keep pushing this thread so people can find the overview.
delete
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Räuber
Well-known
I spend my day with trying to answer one simple question: How to determine the v1, v2 and v3 glass from the outside?
For those that do not understand what I tried to answer I will explain it. From 1932 to 1933 Ludwig Bertele created 3 different optical calculation of the Sonnar 5cm f/2. He kept improving the Sonnar design and was not satisfied with the very first design of the lens and even the second one did not cut it in his eyes. I call those different optical calculations v1, v2 and v3. Later after WWII he created a 4th design of the Sonnar 5cm f/2 that went into production at Zeiss Oberkochen (West Germany). The Nummernbuch II of Mr. Thiele should have all the information of what batches and serials of this lens contains the v1, v2, v3 glass. My question I tried to answer is if the information from the Thiele book is right. And is there another way to tell what optical design is used in a Sonnar 5cm f/2 body?
I finally had the guts to disassemble some of my Sonnars.
From left to right.
There are 2 options.
First one: Thiele is right.
The good news is that you can easily check what glass is used by measure the diameter of the rear lens (no disassembling needed).
What do you think? Is Thiele right or is it all about the form of the last glass element?
For those that do not understand what I tried to answer I will explain it. From 1932 to 1933 Ludwig Bertele created 3 different optical calculation of the Sonnar 5cm f/2. He kept improving the Sonnar design and was not satisfied with the very first design of the lens and even the second one did not cut it in his eyes. I call those different optical calculations v1, v2 and v3. Later after WWII he created a 4th design of the Sonnar 5cm f/2 that went into production at Zeiss Oberkochen (West Germany). The Nummernbuch II of Mr. Thiele should have all the information of what batches and serials of this lens contains the v1, v2, v3 glass. My question I tried to answer is if the information from the Thiele book is right. And is there another way to tell what optical design is used in a Sonnar 5cm f/2 body?
I finally had the guts to disassemble some of my Sonnars.
From left to right.
- batch 4 1932, serial 1383940, v1b ZJ CR bnA2, Thiele v1, front dia 31.75mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 26.2mm, rear glass height 15mm
- batch 7 1932, serial 1412786, v1b ZJ CR bnX2, Thiele v1, front dia 31.9mm, rear dia 17.2mm, rear glass dia 26.2mm, rear glass height 15.05mm
- batch 9 1933, serial 1421809, v1b ZJ CR bnV6, Thiele v1, front dia 31.75mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 26.25mm, rear glass height 15.05mm
- batch 11 1933, serial 1429139, v2b ZJ CR bnV6, Thiele v2, front dia 31.85mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 25.9mm, rear glass height 15mm
- batch 17 1934, serial 1455080, v3b ZJ CR bnV2, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.4mm, rear glass dia 26.15mm, rear glass height 16.9mm
- batch 25 1934, serial 1605737, v3b ZJ CR bnU, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.4mm, rear glass dia 26.45mm, rear glass height 16.45mm
- batch 28 1935, serial 1730522, v3b ZJ CR br, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22mm, rear glass dia 24.8mm, rear glass height 15.05mm
- batch 35 1936, serial 1866371, v3b ZJ CR cO, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22mm, rear glass dia 24.8mm, rear glass height 15.18mm
- batch 26 1935, serial 1630028, v3b ZJ CR cc, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.05mm, rear glass dia 24.8mm, rear glass height 15.05mm
- batch 64 1942, serial 2710196, v3b ZJ CR acT, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.05mm, rear glass dia 24.73mm, rear glass height 15.20mm
- batch 731945, serial 2853591, V3b ZJ M7 bg, Thiele v3, front dia 29mm, rear dia 21,9mm, rear glass dia 24.75mm, rear glass height 15.15mm
There are 2 options.
First one: Thiele is right.
- v1 = front dia 31.8mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 26.2mm, rear glass height 15mm
- v2 = front dia 31.85mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 25.9mm, rear glass height 15mm
- v3 = front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.0-22.4mm, rear glass dia 24.75-26.15mm, rear glass height 15.05-16.9mm
- v1 = front dia 31.8mm, rear dia 17.25mm, rear glass dia 25.9-26.2mm, rear glass height 15mm
- v2 = front dia 29mm, rear dia 22.4mm, rear glass dia 26.15-26.45mm, rear glass height 16.45-16.9mm
- v3 = front dia 29mm, rear dia 22mm, rear glass dia 24.8mm, rear glass height 15.1mm
The good news is that you can easily check what glass is used by measure the diameter of the rear lens (no disassembling needed).
What do you think? Is Thiele right or is it all about the form of the last glass element?
The other factor that is important: curvature of the surfaces of the individual elements.
The Height of the groups are more important than the exact diameter of the optics.
The Height of the groups are more important than the exact diameter of the optics.
Mark240590
Soviet Shooter
The lens is already in the list. Line 1481.
Seems I missed that !
Cheers, looking forward to trying it. First part of west German glass. I’m not huge on the 50/2 normally but I’ll give it an open mind. Atleast it’s coming on a no name Kiev to keep it correct with my collection 🤣
Räuber
Well-known
Inspired by the reply of @Sonnar Brian I tried another attempt. This time I calculated the height of the rear glass element. I measured the height between the glass element and the border of the retaining ring. With this empty space I can calculate the real height of the rear glass element. Since the glass surface is curved I measured from the tip to calculate the max height of the glass element.
In theory we should see 3 different heights. Lets see...
Without the Thiele books I would think there are at least 4 different optical designs here. The main issue are the lenses from batch 11 and 17. The rest falls in line with Thiele. I think the batch 17 lens might be an accident. It is off by 0.2mm. But it is to far away from the previous optical designs ( > 1mm).
Looking at this overview I would say that Thiele might be right.
In theory we should see 3 different heights. Lets see...
- batch 4 1932, serial 1383940, v1b ZJ CR bnA2, Thiele v1, rear glass height 15mm, calculated rear element height 12.6mm
- batch 7 1932, serial 1412786, v1b ZJ CR bnX2, Thiele v1, frear glass height 15.07mm, calculated rear element height 12.52mm
- batch 9 1933, serial 1421809, v1b ZJ CR bnV6, Thiele v1, rear glass height 15.08mm, calculated rear element height 12.46mm
- batch 11 1933, serial 1429139, v2b ZJ CR bnV6, Thiele v2, rear glass height 15mm, calculated rear element height 12.98mm
- batch 17 1934, serial 1455080, v3b ZJ CR bnV2, Thiele v3, rear glass height 16.88mm, calculated rear element height 14.01mm
- batch 25 1934, serial 1605737, v3b ZJ CR bnU, Thiele v3, rear glass height 16.45mm, calculated rear element height 13.79mm
- batch 26 1935, serial 1630028, v3b ZJ CR cc, Thiele v3, rear glass height 15.06mm, calculated rear element height 13.76
- batch 28 1935, serial 1730522, v3b ZJ CR br, Thiele v3, rear glass height 15.06mm, calculated rear element height 13.8mm
- batch 35 1936, serial 1866371, v3b ZJ CR cO, Thiele v3, rear glass height 15.18mm, calculated rear element height 13.83mm
- batch 64 1942, serial 2710196, v3b ZJ CR acT, Thiele v3, rear glass height 15.19mm, calculated rear element height 13.72mm
- batch 731945, serial 2853591, V3b ZJ M7 bg, Thiele v3, rear glass height 15.19mm, calculated rear element height 13.69mm
Without the Thiele books I would think there are at least 4 different optical designs here. The main issue are the lenses from batch 11 and 17. The rest falls in line with Thiele. I think the batch 17 lens might be an accident. It is off by 0.2mm. But it is to far away from the previous optical designs ( > 1mm).
Looking at this overview I would say that Thiele might be right.
- v1 = rear element 12.5mm
- v2 = rear element 13mm
- v3 = rear element 13.8mm
dexdog
Veteran
Rauber, I measured the glass in my lens number1398882, and it corresponds to your data for lens number 1412786. I measued the rear glass height 4 times, it was 15.05mm. The other measurements matched up well.
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