andrewch
Established
I had the D-Lux 2, but I sold it once I got the GR-D. The major advantage of D-Lux 2 is the zoom, and the depth of fixed indicator when used in the manual focus mode. It means you can prefocus the camera like a Leica, with minimal shutter lag. But the noise is horrible at 400, and the lens cap just freak me out. And I could never get used to composing on the LCD.
GR-D on the other hand has the best user interface for a P&S ever, and it makes me forget about not having a zoom and forgive its impossibly long raw writing time. Turn off the LCD, put in on snap mode, and with a viewfinder, it is the ultimate street camera.
GR-D on the other hand has the best user interface for a P&S ever, and it makes me forget about not having a zoom and forgive its impossibly long raw writing time. Turn off the LCD, put in on snap mode, and with a viewfinder, it is the ultimate street camera.
andrewch
Established
Sean Reid had written about both D-Lux 2 and GR-D on his website, and they are worth checking out.
MelanieC
Well-known
There's no small point and shoot that allows you to really play with depth of field. They all also have SOME shutter lag although it can be minimized by prefocusing. I haven't found a short lag to be a problem but I also don't take photos the same way with a P&S as I do with my real cameras.
I have the D-Lux 3 and am very happy with it. The RAW write speed is very fast for my purposes. The RAW files are very good and require little post-processing in my experience. I tend not to use the camera above 200 ISO but if you do and you shoot RAW you can make a reasonable facsimile of film grain out of the noise. If it matters, the movie mode is excellent.
Some examples here:
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/71983229 (jpg handheld at ISO 100 for 8 seconds)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/72505815 (RAW converted to bw with tone added)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73275635 (RAW required almost no postprocessing, ISO 100)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73852285 (jpg snapshot)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73275687 (jpg camera pr0n)
I have the D-Lux 3 and am very happy with it. The RAW write speed is very fast for my purposes. The RAW files are very good and require little post-processing in my experience. I tend not to use the camera above 200 ISO but if you do and you shoot RAW you can make a reasonable facsimile of film grain out of the noise. If it matters, the movie mode is excellent.
Some examples here:
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/71983229 (jpg handheld at ISO 100 for 8 seconds)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/72505815 (RAW converted to bw with tone added)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73275635 (RAW required almost no postprocessing, ISO 100)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73852285 (jpg snapshot)
http://www.pbase.com/miranc/image/73275687 (jpg camera pr0n)
jameshays
Member
dcsang said:
And a meter lock button. This is my single biggest pet peeve on compact digicams, the lack of the AE lock button.
IGMeanwell
Well-known
The F30 is an excellent P&S and it has definitely given me the proper alternative when I don't want to carry my DSLRs around. Its low light capabilities are excellent
This my flickr set using it:
http://flickr.com/photos/pnettlet/sets/72157594429438747/
I posted some ISO1600 and ISO 800 samples in this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30239&page=7&highlight=P&S
This my flickr set using it:
http://flickr.com/photos/pnettlet/sets/72157594429438747/
I posted some ISO1600 and ISO 800 samples in this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30239&page=7&highlight=P&S
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Sailor Ted said:
Sailor Ted said:
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Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
ywenz
Veteran
Jim: it looks like you're not aware of the GRD in-camera image setting to reduce the amount of noise in the blue channel. What you do is, turn down color to its lowest setting, and turn up contrast to it's hightest setting. The result, is very usable film like color images all the way up to 1600 iso. Give it a try..
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
ywenz said:
Thanks for the tip, but yes, I was aware of it, although the GRD photo above was with the normal settings. I have Image Set 2 fixed at: Contrast to Max, Sharpness Normal, Colour Depth to Minimum, so that I can quickly swop settings. It is better, especially at 800, but it can sometimes make getting a good White Balance under artificial light difficult or it pushes the noise back up. I still think the F30 retains a little more detail and at 1600 in colour I still think the F30 is more usable in most cases, but of course your opinion may differ. In B&W the more film like look of the GRD is usually preferable.
I brought the F30 after the GRD because of the slightly longer (at wide angle end) lens (the zoom is not too important to me) and because I hoped for a better high iso performance. At the reduced price I paid its a good buy. The GRD handles more like a 'proper' camera though. I think its a pity they decided to push the small sensor to 8 mega pixels. I bet the performance would have been even better limited to 6.
I'm just expecting too much of a point & shoot really. I want the 1600 ISO (or better 3200) performance of my R-D1 in a GRD size package. I never had these expectations from film.
Below B&W comparison.
1st GRD 400 iso
2nd F30 1600 iso
Attachments
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John Camp
Well-known
Best place to look is Phil Askey's reviews on Digital Photography Review forum. If you go to the whole list of all reviews, you can click on "rank by rating" or something like that, and see what he has to say. I considered the F30 but wound up with a Canon G7 because I wanted the longer reach and the IS. You're not going to have much control over DOF no matter what you do. IMHO, there are fifty P&Ss out there that produce images in about the same range of quality, but with a variety of different features, so you're going to have to pick one based on your own personal uses. For example, I absolutely need a fully retractable lens and no hand grip, because I want to carry it flat in a briefcase. If that's not a problem, you can get more features and better lenses on bigger, more SLR-like P&Ss -- but those are not much smaller than the Leica, so if I can take one of those, I'd take the Leica instead. If I were you, before choosing, I'd just list your requirements without any preconception of what you want to buy, and then run down Askey's list of "Highly Recommended" cameras and pick the one that comes closest.
JC
JC
Sailor Ted
Well-known
To everyone who contributed a big thank you. And John I took your advise and looked at what I wanted most in a P&S camera- ease of manual control, good ergonomics, fast shutter response for street photography, an option to use an optical view finder, and class leading wide angle lens options. My decision? The Roich GRD. Yes I know it's noisy and other cameras have better IQ all things being equal however for me it's the Roich's ability to let me control the shot that won the day. Also when I reviewed flickr photogs who use the cameras suggested the images that presented what I hope to achieve were nearly all shot on the GRD- for examples of what I mean click here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/matador_snaps/
Next stop? Tony Rose!
Next stop? Tony Rose!
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Or not... do you think Rioch has a new and improved model on the horizon?
ywenz
Veteran
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matador_snaps/
This guy is a great photographer and post processing genius. His examples with the LX1 and GRD are equally good.
This thread is OT.. it should be moved to the P&S forum. Will send request to the Mod
This guy is a great photographer and post processing genius. His examples with the LX1 and GRD are equally good.
This thread is OT.. it should be moved to the P&S forum. Will send request to the Mod
ampguy
Veteran
Sailor Ted
Well-known
ywenz said:
Perhaps Ben however this question was directed to like minded prime camera shooters- M8 / R-D1 photogs as a "side arm" to these camreas.
ywenz said:
Regarding Matador's post process- he uses, can you guess? LIGHTROOM!!!
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ywenz
Veteran
Sailor Ted said:
Lightroom is a good app. I've used is sparingly on my PC. General perception is that Lightroom runs a lot faster than Aperture, which I tend to agree. Was going to invest into aperture until I tried it on a MacBook Pro and it was like molasses. What POS!
harmsr
M5 Nut
Ted,
PMA is exactly one month away. I would wait and see what is going to be introduced.
Just my $.02.
Ray
PMA is exactly one month away. I would wait and see what is going to be introduced.
Just my $.02.
Ray
Sailor Ted
Well-known
harmsr,
I hear you buddy however Tony Rose just told me that no new GRD is on the horizon until at least June "so far as he knows." And since he had a new "used" version for $537 I took it. Now let's see if i eat crow next month : )
For anyone interested here is what one of the hottest GRD jocks ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/matador_snaps/page2/ ) emailed me in regard to the GRD as his P&S of choice- this (and his photography) pushed me in the GRD direction:
"But talking about the Ricoh, and answering your questions
in order:
If i like it? I'm sure you know those small wonders that
were the Ricohs GR1, well, this one is, in some ways, their
digital equivalent.
Prime 28mm lens (with maximum aperture of 2.4) that i´m
happy to use full open all the time, its sharp all the way.
Nice contrast and handles light in a special nice way, for a
small sensor camera.
Using it is pretty straightforward, two dials (as nikons
for ex) that in manual mode control the aperture and
shutter speed, one of them when pressed down provide access
to four programable functions. In mine i have White Balance,
ISO settings, Focus Mode and Metering. This way in a "real"
second i can alter this settings. What i love most in this
camera is the "no fiddling on deep menus" approach by
Ricoh. A camera that i had used extensively that provided
the same easy and informal use of this one is my small
Rollei 35SE.
The visuals are stunning, at least for me, just like a real
camera Magnesium body, all black, no funky chromes, clean
layout of buttons. I've been using for only a few months,
but until now, i noticed that everyone looks toward it as
to an lazy 80s P&S camera, and so, they walk by without
many thoughts on it, and that's a good thing in many
aspects.
The RAW writing times are long, 9 to 11 secs by my
experience. It's annoying but i come to become familiar
with this gap moments... its a time i now look towards the
scene and think in other ways of shooting it. The real
problem is when something is happening in your front and
you have only a chance or two to capture it. This is a
constrain of using this camera as a prime camera, because i
want to retain the most juice of the colors and light it can
handle, if i had another one, maybe i would switch it to
JPEG... or maybe not
Saying that, the JPEGs of this camera are very good, with
very natural colors and with a kind of low contrast values
that work very well if you have to work them on some
software.
The noise. It exists, but it has some personality in it...
the shape of the dots (yes they are mostly dots, instead of
that grid of squares you see everywhere) blend well in the
images, Ricoh didn't tried to remove or blur it, and that
is good, because if you really want to, you can use some
good plugins to perform this task, instead of some limited
processing of a small camera. Noise isn't really an issue
in this camera for me, it exists but doesn't interfere on
the images in a striking and visually shocking way. Instead
it ads some "familiarity" to the images. On some of my
images you can see a lot of grain, much because of some
extreme post processing with the levels of the image.
Shutter delay doesn't exist in this camera! Because of the
high depth field always available, even if you press the
shutter all the way in a rush moment it stops the focusing
process and take the picture at that same moment. In most
of the cases this works perfectly, only if you where trying
to capture some close (1 meter or so) subject this could
lend to mismatched focus. But in any situation, manual mode
or full auto, the shutter delay is very small, and this, to
me, is of very importance on the experience of
photographing.
The accessory i use most is the 21 mm adapter, that is
marvelous. Low distortion and the images are sharp as they
would without it. The viewfinder i use less, but this is a
habit i will try to correct.
The software i use is Adobe Lightroom, it has all the
functions i need in image processing and combines this with
the handling and cataloging of large number of files. All
this in one package. I highly recommend it.
To this date no other camera replaced this one in my
opinion. You really need to hold one and see if it looks
good for you, i'm sure a Leica user will appreciate the
concept behind this small camera. In fact i know some users
of Leicas that have the GR-D, precisely as a backup camera,
and all them come to be really found of it."
I hear you buddy however Tony Rose just told me that no new GRD is on the horizon until at least June "so far as he knows." And since he had a new "used" version for $537 I took it. Now let's see if i eat crow next month : )
For anyone interested here is what one of the hottest GRD jocks ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/matador_snaps/page2/ ) emailed me in regard to the GRD as his P&S of choice- this (and his photography) pushed me in the GRD direction:
"But talking about the Ricoh, and answering your questions
in order:
If i like it? I'm sure you know those small wonders that
were the Ricohs GR1, well, this one is, in some ways, their
digital equivalent.
Prime 28mm lens (with maximum aperture of 2.4) that i´m
happy to use full open all the time, its sharp all the way.
Nice contrast and handles light in a special nice way, for a
small sensor camera.
Using it is pretty straightforward, two dials (as nikons
for ex) that in manual mode control the aperture and
shutter speed, one of them when pressed down provide access
to four programable functions. In mine i have White Balance,
ISO settings, Focus Mode and Metering. This way in a "real"
second i can alter this settings. What i love most in this
camera is the "no fiddling on deep menus" approach by
Ricoh. A camera that i had used extensively that provided
the same easy and informal use of this one is my small
Rollei 35SE.
The visuals are stunning, at least for me, just like a real
camera
Magnesium body, all black, no funky chromes, cleanlayout of buttons. I've been using for only a few months,
but until now, i noticed that everyone looks toward it as
to an lazy 80s P&S camera, and so, they walk by without
many thoughts on it, and that's a good thing in many
aspects.
The RAW writing times are long, 9 to 11 secs by my
experience. It's annoying but i come to become familiar
with this gap moments... its a time i now look towards the
scene and think in other ways of shooting it. The real
problem is when something is happening in your front and
you have only a chance or two to capture it. This is a
constrain of using this camera as a prime camera, because i
want to retain the most juice of the colors and light it can
handle, if i had another one, maybe i would switch it to
JPEG... or maybe not
Saying that, the JPEGs of this camera are very good, with
very natural colors and with a kind of low contrast values
that work very well if you have to work them on some
software.
The noise. It exists, but it has some personality in it...
the shape of the dots (yes they are mostly dots, instead of
that grid of squares you see everywhere) blend well in the
images, Ricoh didn't tried to remove or blur it, and that
is good, because if you really want to, you can use some
good plugins to perform this task, instead of some limited
processing of a small camera. Noise isn't really an issue
in this camera for me, it exists but doesn't interfere on
the images in a striking and visually shocking way. Instead
it ads some "familiarity" to the images. On some of my
images you can see a lot of grain, much because of some
extreme post processing with the levels of the image.
Shutter delay doesn't exist in this camera! Because of the
high depth field always available, even if you press the
shutter all the way in a rush moment it stops the focusing
process and take the picture at that same moment. In most
of the cases this works perfectly, only if you where trying
to capture some close (1 meter or so) subject this could
lend to mismatched focus. But in any situation, manual mode
or full auto, the shutter delay is very small, and this, to
me, is of very importance on the experience of
photographing.
The accessory i use most is the 21 mm adapter, that is
marvelous. Low distortion and the images are sharp as they
would without it. The viewfinder i use less, but this is a
habit i will try to correct.
The software i use is Adobe Lightroom, it has all the
functions i need in image processing and combines this with
the handling and cataloging of large number of files. All
this in one package. I highly recommend it.
To this date no other camera replaced this one in my
opinion. You really need to hold one and see if it looks
good for you, i'm sure a Leica user will appreciate the
concept behind this small camera. In fact i know some users
of Leicas that have the GR-D, precisely as a backup camera,
and all them come to be really found of it."
harmsr
M5 Nut
Ted,
Congrats and I wish you well with it.
The GRD is a good camera, it just did not fit what I wanted. The DLux3 did fit a little better, but is still not the camera I want for a small P&S. ( I originally bought the GRD, but sold it and purchased the DLux3.)
I have not heard rumors about a new GRD for awhile yet, so Tony is probably correct.
I have heard rumors of something else though that might be what I'm looking for, so I can't wait to see if anything turns out or not at PMA.
Best,
Ray
Congrats and I wish you well with it.
The GRD is a good camera, it just did not fit what I wanted. The DLux3 did fit a little better, but is still not the camera I want for a small P&S. ( I originally bought the GRD, but sold it and purchased the DLux3.)
I have not heard rumors about a new GRD for awhile yet, so Tony is probably correct.
I have heard rumors of something else though that might be what I'm looking for, so I can't wait to see if anything turns out or not at PMA.
Best,
Ray
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
interesting excerpt about the GRD ... I wonder what he thinks of it relative to the LX1 ... judging by his photos, the LX1 is highly capable as well.