past 1600?

3

3js

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Ok folks, how you do it? I´ve been able to get very good results to 1600, but after that, everything falls apart. My main concern is grain. My main goal would be 6400, but is it even possible?
 
3js: What have you been using. Merciful (Andrew Murphy) has gone all the way to 12500 w/ TX in Rodinal, but I've never been able to duplicate that. So far I've gotten good results w/ TX @ 1600; grain is quite acceptable, IMO. I'm planning to try one more stop push and see what happens.

1600:

2026367729_29f350500a_o.jpg


More:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/97373293@N00/2026370207/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97373293@N00/2036725088/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97373293@N00/2026368911/in/photostream/
 
You can't really push film. You can really only "push" the processing, which raises highlight values. But due to underexposure, the low values will lose detail. So it is always a trade-off between supplemental lighting, tripod or "available" light. With appropriate choices, the higher values and even mid-tones will have enough gradation that you have a useable image at the very least.
 
Pablito said:
try TMZ in TMax developer. Far better shadow detail than pushing TX
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Yes, I have been using T-Max dev with T-Max films, and results are excelent with T-Max 400 @ 1600, but with T-Max 3200 @ 6400 all that I was able to do was really uggly grain. I can live with the loss of the shadow detail, it just means harder work in the dark room, but all that grain...

As light levels here in the northern europe are getting really low, I´m getting more desperate. Even the wicked thougt of using flash has entered in to my nightmares... :eek:
 
3js: What have you been using. Merciful (Andrew Murphy) has gone all the way to 12500 w/ TX in Rodinal, but I've never been able to duplicate that. So far I've gotten good results w/ TX @ 1600; grain is quite acceptable, IMO. I'm planning to try one more stop push and see what happens.


That looks quite good for a trix @ 1600, may I ask your methods? I´have tried to push trix too, but have to stop to 800. Fuji 1600 with rodinal barely goes to 1600, grain is nice but the shadow details are totally gone.

So I have the 1600 asa, but what there is after that?
 
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I've had amazing results with tri-x pushed to 2000 in xtol 1:1, for 17:30 21C and 3x inverts every 30 secs. I'm still working out the details for 3200
 
3js said:
As light levels here in the northern europe are getting really low, I´m getting more desperate. Even the wicked thougt of using flash has entered in to my nightmares... :eek:
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Since other people have already provided better practical advice for B&W film than I would be able to do, I will add some useless blabber:

There's nothing wrong with using a flash, if you do it correctly... Direct flash is strictly last resort, but bounced flash will produce quite nice results. You can also use a wireless slave flash. They are not very expensive and there are many models that are light enough to be used on the field. With a slave flash to soften the shadows even direct flash can produce acceptable results.

I also live in Northern Europe and taking pictures of anything that moves in the midwinter is a real challenge without a flash. If I had to do it regularly I would seriously consider getting a good DSLR. Canon 5D, Nikon D300 or Sony A700 would suffice nicely. ISO 3200 is pretty much the outer edge for film and for color film it is ISO 1600. Converted to B&W the DSLR's have much less noise/grain and better shadow detail at ISO 3200 than film, especially if you shoot raw and recover shadow detail in processing, and even in color the results are acceptable for many purposes.
 
Shoot fast film, use speed-enhancing developer, think about your light and subjects.

I found that TMZ and Delta 3200 in Microphen work equally well and allow me to go upto EI 6400-10000. The grain is there, but not objectionable: it's been worse with old-school 400 films.

Evaluating exposure is the hardest part: normally when you need extreme speeds the light is so harsh, spotty and uneven, that normal metering techniques fail. You need a certain degree of trial and error to figure out what gotta go as middle-tone, and what should be left in shadows.
 
True, when pushing to excessive ISO's, shadow detail is lost. However! What do your eyes see? Shadow detail is lost just by the low lighting, so what the film records is more or less accurate. IMHO
 
Dr Strangelove is correct that with the proper technique, flash can be indistinguishable (to the "lay person") from, say, floursecent light in the ceiling. You just need a fairly powerful flash unit, some way to get it off the camera, and some sort of diffusion system. (This could be anything from a white index card to a fancy acessory sold for this purpose). Then it's practice, practice, practice. A dslr helps because you can judge your results right away. You can learn the technique using dslr for feedback, then use it w/ film. Personally, I adore TMZ (Tmax P3200 and don't find the grain objectionable at 3200)
 
bsdunek said:
True, when pushing to excessive ISO's, shadow detail is lost. However! What do your eyes see? Shadow detail is lost just by the low lighting, so what the film records is more or less accurate. IMHO
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My eyes can see shadow detail that is not captured by film pushed to high ISOs. And sometimes I find a black blob in a photo distracting. But pushing does work well if the lighting is fairly flat.
 
Dr. Strangelove said:
There's nothing wrong with using a flash, if you do it correctly... Direct flash is strictly last resort, but bounced flash will produce quite nice results. You can also use a wireless slave flash. They are not very expensive and there are many models that are light enough to be used on the field. With a slave flash to soften the shadows even direct flash can produce acceptable results.

I also live in Northern Europe and taking pictures of anything that moves in the midwinter is a real challenge without a flash. .
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My main field is street, and I just can´t use flash in the streets. One shot, and everybody have noticed you. That can mean big troubles. But thanks for the tip anyway.
 
3js said:
3js: What have you been using. Merciful (Andrew Murphy) has gone all the way to 12500 w/ TX in Rodinal, but I've never been able to duplicate that. So far I've gotten good results w/ TX @ 1600; grain is quite acceptable, IMO. I'm planning to try one more stop push and see what happens.


That looks quite good for a trix @ 1600, may I ask your methods? I´have tried to push trix too, but have to stop to 800. Fuji 1600 with rodinal barely goes to 1600, grain is nice but the shadow details are totally gone.

So I have the 1600 asa, but what there is after that?
Click to expand...
For the TX @ 1600, I used Rodinal 1:50, 28 minutes @ 20C, 30 sec initial agitation, then 3 gentle inversions every three minutes thereafter.

Eugene: I'm going to try TMZ-2 pushed in Rodinal/Xtol, XTol ... but will also try Microphen.
 
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I did some rolls using Tmax3200 pushed by one stop. I used HC-110 to develop the film. The results were pretty good imho.
 
Trius, sure, give Microphen a try. For best results at very high EI, use fresh stock solution. Also, the general suggestion for 3200 films to take development time for a stop over EI you used (e.g. for EI 6400 time for 12800). The shot below was around EI 10000, developed with extra time.

What do you mean by TMZ-2 by the way, is there a new version?

tmx1.jpg
 
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