Steve M.
Veteran
Nice sentiment, but Iran is not South Korea. Due to extreme religious beliefs in the Middle East between the Israelis, Iranians, Palestinians etc that place has always been a disaster, w/ each faction claiming they have the direct path to some deity (a deity that apparently loves to see people killed left and right). Ironically it was one of the more progressive and moderate countries (but a dictatorship none the less) that the US illegally invaded for make believe reasons.
I hope the Iranians get things sorted out. At least President Obama is doing the smart thing by not getting involved and stating, rightly so, that the issue is an Iranian issue. We have caused those people enough grief from our constant meddling and support of the corrupt Shaw before the Revolution.
I hope the Iranians get things sorted out. At least President Obama is doing the smart thing by not getting involved and stating, rightly so, that the issue is an Iranian issue. We have caused those people enough grief from our constant meddling and support of the corrupt Shaw before the Revolution.
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Aziz
Established
Amen to that. Change needs to happen from within. Most of us know what happened in Iran in the 50's. I'd like to think that we have learned from that mistake.
That's not to say that I would not welcome a less theocratic Government in Iran. Because that would make me the happiest person in the world.
That's not to say that I would not welcome a less theocratic Government in Iran. Because that would make me the happiest person in the world.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
The biggest danger to democracy is not power-hungry theocracies like in Iran but rather malevolent oligarchies masquerading as democracy. Pre-engineered elections, imbedded (i.e. "in-bed-with") state-controlled media, etc. It's the superficial impression of democracy without the power of the populace to effect actual change through real choice.
It's been interesting watching the situation unfold in Iran, how a theocracy used the superficial impression of faux-democracy in an attempt to satiate the masses' desire for choice and freedom. But with a faux-election the outcome was predetermined, hence no choice at all.
Lesson for us all. Manufactured democracy is no democracy. I'm not even sure if "pure" democracy is even possible, perhaps it's just a theoretical construct. But as long as oligarchs manuever to prevent the masses from honest, free elections, there can be no democracy. And that's not just in developing countries; I remember in the States back in the 2000 election there was some imbroglio.
~Joe
It's been interesting watching the situation unfold in Iran, how a theocracy used the superficial impression of faux-democracy in an attempt to satiate the masses' desire for choice and freedom. But with a faux-election the outcome was predetermined, hence no choice at all.
Lesson for us all. Manufactured democracy is no democracy. I'm not even sure if "pure" democracy is even possible, perhaps it's just a theoretical construct. But as long as oligarchs manuever to prevent the masses from honest, free elections, there can be no democracy. And that's not just in developing countries; I remember in the States back in the 2000 election there was some imbroglio.
~Joe
Belle
Established
It took many many years for S. Korea to achieve democracy. And there were numerous demonstrations and riots spanning some 35 years where people were suppressed, imprisoned, executed, and/or killed by a ruthless dictator government. i.e. Gwangju Massacre. But in the end, the masses prevailed.
I would really like to see the people of Iran prevail. I genuinely feel like we're at the crossroad of history where we can start tearing down mistrust and start getting along. Hope that time is now.
I would really like to see the people of Iran prevail. I genuinely feel like we're at the crossroad of history where we can start tearing down mistrust and start getting along. Hope that time is now.
One wonders what the Iran of today would be like if the Americans (and British) left the democratically elected secular government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq in power, instead of staging the coup that brought the Shah to power in 1953.
But then again you cannot nationalise Iran's oil industry, which had been controlled exclusively by the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, the UK's largest single investment overseas, without some sort of backlash right?!
Considering their track record, I have a very hard time believing that the USA (and others) aren't "getting involved" this time round either, despite what President Obama says. I just hope, as the poster above said, that the Iranians get things sorted out themselves with minimal outside interference.
But then again you cannot nationalise Iran's oil industry, which had been controlled exclusively by the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, the UK's largest single investment overseas, without some sort of backlash right?!
Considering their track record, I have a very hard time believing that the USA (and others) aren't "getting involved" this time round either, despite what President Obama says. I just hope, as the poster above said, that the Iranians get things sorted out themselves with minimal outside interference.
MartinL
MartinL
One might say, if only sarcastically, that even South Korea is not South Korea--at least in respect to the popular imagination of its freedoms and successes.
Kudos to the countries that have become "less worse" than they were a decade or a generation ago--and shine especially when compared to the most egregious nation-violators of human dignity and rights--North Korea, Iran, and so forth. But this may be setting the bar too low.
Part of the inspiration we take from Iranians on the streets should be to muster our own effort and courage to correct injustices at home.
We have much unfinished business to conduct and many necessary photos to take.
Note that this week is the 40th anniversary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
Hmmmm....those of us in the USA, what do we have here?
Here you are given a small space where you can feel free, just like a squirrel does in a wheel cage, feeling the wind blowing into its face, "freely" running forward, generating some miniscule power for the system, but the minute you step outside your squirrel wheel, you are either redirected right back or are crushed and discarded.
We used to be free.
I don't think we are the freest country any more. I really don't care who has most freedoms. Thats not the point.
It is just that we lost ours.
Just think back, think when you were young. How much of the freedoms you had then are totally gone today?
Think and compare going to the bank and making a large deposit. Did anybody question you where did you get your money? It was nobody's business.
It was your money, Your business alone.
Think about your freedom to travel. It is gone. You have to prove who you are, so the state will allow you to go someplace.
I did not willingly give those freedoms away. I did not say, "please, lock me up for my own safety", did I?
And it was not one party that took those freedoms away. Both of them did. Each one under a different excuses, from "its for the children", "its for your own protection" to "its for the environment", "its for the economy".
Nothing of the past freedoms is coming back.
The only question remains us "how fast and how tight are they going to tighten the screws under the present regime?"
These are very serious abrogations of your "freedom".
Most people today do not even realize how deeply they have you under their thumb. They control your movements and you no longer have ANY financial privacy. Every single thing you do is tracked, they want to know about every nickel you make. This is so far gone that any pretense of "freedom" is a bad joke. And most people do not realize that Obama recently announced the most intrusive global controls on personal finances of ANY government in history. He's hiring 8,000 IRS agents to spy on and prosecute US citizens all over the world.
A passport used to be a simple document asking foreign governments to have the courtesy to to help out American citizens if assistance was ever needed. Now it is a tool of total control and surveillance. We are all truly and well screwed.
We live in the biggest surveillance state in the world. Everything you do is documented, no matter what you do in the world Uncle Sam wants to subpoena the banks and get his cut, while he simply prints and steals as much as he wants as home.
Stalin would have had an orgasm.
In Iran, they get to chose which religious fanatic nut will rule over them. Big deal.
Here you are given a small space where you can feel free, just like a squirrel does in a wheel cage, feeling the wind blowing into its face, "freely" running forward, generating some miniscule power for the system, but the minute you step outside your squirrel wheel, you are either redirected right back or are crushed and discarded.
We used to be free.
I don't think we are the freest country any more. I really don't care who has most freedoms. Thats not the point.
It is just that we lost ours.
Just think back, think when you were young. How much of the freedoms you had then are totally gone today?
Think and compare going to the bank and making a large deposit. Did anybody question you where did you get your money? It was nobody's business.
It was your money, Your business alone.
Think about your freedom to travel. It is gone. You have to prove who you are, so the state will allow you to go someplace.
I did not willingly give those freedoms away. I did not say, "please, lock me up for my own safety", did I?
And it was not one party that took those freedoms away. Both of them did. Each one under a different excuses, from "its for the children", "its for your own protection" to "its for the environment", "its for the economy".
Nothing of the past freedoms is coming back.
The only question remains us "how fast and how tight are they going to tighten the screws under the present regime?"
These are very serious abrogations of your "freedom".
Most people today do not even realize how deeply they have you under their thumb. They control your movements and you no longer have ANY financial privacy. Every single thing you do is tracked, they want to know about every nickel you make. This is so far gone that any pretense of "freedom" is a bad joke. And most people do not realize that Obama recently announced the most intrusive global controls on personal finances of ANY government in history. He's hiring 8,000 IRS agents to spy on and prosecute US citizens all over the world.
A passport used to be a simple document asking foreign governments to have the courtesy to to help out American citizens if assistance was ever needed. Now it is a tool of total control and surveillance. We are all truly and well screwed.
We live in the biggest surveillance state in the world. Everything you do is documented, no matter what you do in the world Uncle Sam wants to subpoena the banks and get his cut, while he simply prints and steals as much as he wants as home.
Stalin would have had an orgasm.
In Iran, they get to chose which religious fanatic nut will rule over them. Big deal.
Sparrow
Veteran
And while we are reflecting on historic truth we may wish to consider that it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century.
If we’re just going for sweeping generalisations and cheap shots that is.
teo
Well-known
Not to doubt about you, but "financial privacy" is often sought after by mobsters&co....
Spoks
Well-known
Here is a lot of pompous talk of "freedom" and "democracy" from both Americans and Europeans here.
The difference between Iran v USA or Europe is far more marginal than what the press tells you. Both USA and Europe have had some scandalous elections lately. Like the latest direct election to the European Parliament, with less than 50% participation, not all ballots represented at every poll station and flagrant lack of election control - with the result that the European Parliament is now filled up with neo nazis.
I won't even mention "George Bush" or "Florida", of being considdered anti American.
The US antagonism towards Iran is just too obvious; they can't get their hands on Iranian oil. That will hardly be the case anyway, regardless of who wins the street battles of Tehran. So, Obama does the wise thing; he keeps shut.
Sober observers here in Europe, I am sure, in USA too, predicted that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would win, if not so obviously as with more than 60% of the votes. After all, he got wide support from the poor, the working class and the people in the Iranian contryside.
The reforms that could be expected from Mir-Hossein Mousavi would hardly include a stop in the neuclear program or that Halliburton will get any oil service contracts. Mir-Hossein Mousavi is supported by a urban middle class, the students and another fraction of religous freaks that de facto rules Iran. Like Wall Street rules USA, and so on.
I am not at all sure that this will end well for the Iranians regardless who will end up as victorers on top of a heap of corpses. Nor shall we talk so selfasured about our own democracies or freedoms. Here is room for a lot of improvement.
The difference between Iran v USA or Europe is far more marginal than what the press tells you. Both USA and Europe have had some scandalous elections lately. Like the latest direct election to the European Parliament, with less than 50% participation, not all ballots represented at every poll station and flagrant lack of election control - with the result that the European Parliament is now filled up with neo nazis.
I won't even mention "George Bush" or "Florida", of being considdered anti American.
The US antagonism towards Iran is just too obvious; they can't get their hands on Iranian oil. That will hardly be the case anyway, regardless of who wins the street battles of Tehran. So, Obama does the wise thing; he keeps shut.
Sober observers here in Europe, I am sure, in USA too, predicted that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would win, if not so obviously as with more than 60% of the votes. After all, he got wide support from the poor, the working class and the people in the Iranian contryside.
The reforms that could be expected from Mir-Hossein Mousavi would hardly include a stop in the neuclear program or that Halliburton will get any oil service contracts. Mir-Hossein Mousavi is supported by a urban middle class, the students and another fraction of religous freaks that de facto rules Iran. Like Wall Street rules USA, and so on.
I am not at all sure that this will end well for the Iranians regardless who will end up as victorers on top of a heap of corpses. Nor shall we talk so selfasured about our own democracies or freedoms. Here is room for a lot of improvement.
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And while we are reflecting on historic truth we may wish to consider that it was oil from the Persian basin that the British developed, that powered the navy, that prevented the dominance of two greater tyrannies in the 20th century.
The oil powered British navy was a factor, but was not the factor.
Things may have turned out differently if the British government-controlled Anglo-Iranian Oil Company actually came through on their contractual obligations with the Iranians, despite those obligations being very lopsided against the Iranians in the first place.
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Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
I suggest you watch the video at the link to see how great the mullahs in Iran are...
http://mashable.com/2009/06/21/neda/
yeah, men of god. NOT!
http://mashable.com/2009/06/21/neda/
yeah, men of god. NOT!
Yes I've seen that video. Very sad indeed.
BillBingham2
Registered User
This points to one of our greatest strengths and potential weaknesses, the peaceful transition of power and the swings that come with. Combined with short memories I think we often shoot ourselves in the foot looking for the best hand dealt on the table. We seem to think if we teak this or poke that we can help something happen quicker. For some it's business interests, others it's more altruistic (democracy). I know we had help from several sources during our revolution (e.g. France) and in some cases slapped back at the hand that helped a few years later. I tend to think that they only way we were able to get our act together was because it took so long for folks from outside to come visit (sailing across an ocean takes a long time).
I'm keeping my fingers, toes and eyes crossed that the US will keep watching and let the magic of democracy play out. The sooner we get the world off oil the better we will all be.
B2 (;->
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Yeah, I'm thinking it could be Iran's Kent State moment...
I do wish the Iranian citizens well, and want them to be able to plot their own destiny as a country. At this point I'm afraid they are having a Tienanmen (sp?) Square moment.
(Yeah, their government stinks, but whose doesn't?)
I think its inevitable that the pendulum will continue to swing towards a more moderate Iranian state, but I doubt we're seeing a "moment" as the western media would have you believe.
This article, Iranian Elections: The 'Stolen Elections' Hoax by Prof. James Petras, does a good job explaining why.
Some excerpts:
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Mael
Established
Some people fought here long time ago, in our home countries to gain rights and democracy. Today people who vote, are the same that spent 3 to 7 hours a day in front of their TV, the primary source of their "knowledge" and "culture". Is this not something frightening ?
Sparrow
Veteran
I didn’t claim it to be a factor; I said it powered the ships, which it did.
I’m not sure who you are quoting there but he’s talking twaddle, sorry.
I completely agree that the Brits lied and cheated to get the oil, you did fail to mention we also stole the geological surveys from Russia first, he had a bit of style that Cunningham chap, one doesn’t get the epitaph Perfidious Albion for nothing.
Do you suppose the Iranians would have preferred to be “bombed back to the stone-age” instead being cheated out of it?
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Sparrow
Veteran
Some people fought here long time ago, in our home countries to gain rights and democracy. Today people who vote, are the same that spent 3 to 7 hours a day in front of their TV, the primary source of their "knowledge" and "culture". Is this not something frightening ?
I find the thought that most of the “free world” has it’s opinions informed by News International truly terrifying
BillBingham2
Registered User
Iran has a deep history with complexities and scares much deeper than we over here in the US have and often understand. Much of the country is "back in the stone-age" still. Religon has always been a way for people to look for a better way, a way to bond with other people, an escape from a life that sucks. That's not all it brings, but many look to it for salvation when there is no other option.
Because of the lack of access to Iran (and other places) and the death of newpapers or any other reporting media that can actually send reporters in to do indepth stories we are stuck with what sells and fills the cable networks.
Having worked in the area that supports the third largest population of voters in the US I know that with paper ballots there is no way they could count that many so quickly as they said they did.
I think we are not getting the complete storie on either side of this.
B2 (;->
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