mpaniagua
Newby photographer
It depends on the seller Roger. When you put something to sell, ebay allows the seller to set the payment options (Paypal, credit card, check or the likes). I suppose the only one they give buyer protections is Paypal though. Not sure about this because Ive always used Paypal when dealing with Ebay (both at buying and selling).
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Very well put. If something, Paypal is buyer "friendly", not seller friendly (kinda high fees, payment freeze,etc.). The buyer gets some degree of protection and seller gets the exposure that paypal gives, i.e. if you sell though ebay or sites that uses paypal, you get exposure to thousands of potential buyers.
pepeguitarra
Well-known
I have been using Paypal since inception
I have been using Paypal since inception
1) Never had a problem buying or selling.
2) As a buyer, you are protected, not as much as a seller. e.g., if someone gets the product you sold, and breaks it. He can claim that it arrived broken and send pictures. Paypal will "investigate" and always take the buyers side. You can protect by videotaping the packaging and the package delivery to the post office. Send them a picture to the buyer as reference. however, if the buyer is a crook (very possible), then you will risk the value of your item. So, I do not deal with an amount I am not ready to lose. Really expensive stuff, I only buy from real stores: Tamarkin, Leica Store Miami, B&H, Adorama, even KEH.
3) Paypal reports payment to the IRS, so make sure you have clear accounting to pay your taxes.
4) They charge some important fee, which you can include in your business operation.
5) I do not use the send money as gift. As buyer, you are at loss, you are not protected by Paypal.
6) It is easy to use/
7) You have to have real accounts, and real names.
8) You can limit your exposure to hackers using certain actions already described here, and others that you can figure out.
9) When you are dealing with Ebay, or forum (some people you do not know), it is safer to use Paypal.
I have been using Paypal since inception
1) Never had a problem buying or selling.
2) As a buyer, you are protected, not as much as a seller. e.g., if someone gets the product you sold, and breaks it. He can claim that it arrived broken and send pictures. Paypal will "investigate" and always take the buyers side. You can protect by videotaping the packaging and the package delivery to the post office. Send them a picture to the buyer as reference. however, if the buyer is a crook (very possible), then you will risk the value of your item. So, I do not deal with an amount I am not ready to lose. Really expensive stuff, I only buy from real stores: Tamarkin, Leica Store Miami, B&H, Adorama, even KEH.
3) Paypal reports payment to the IRS, so make sure you have clear accounting to pay your taxes.
4) They charge some important fee, which you can include in your business operation.
5) I do not use the send money as gift. As buyer, you are at loss, you are not protected by Paypal.
6) It is easy to use/
7) You have to have real accounts, and real names.
8) You can limit your exposure to hackers using certain actions already described here, and others that you can figure out.
9) When you are dealing with Ebay, or forum (some people you do not know), it is safer to use Paypal.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Couple of years ago, when I was treasurer for our local PPA affiliate, we used PayPal on our web site which allowed members and guests to pay on line for various items such as yearly dues, special events and other educational workshops offered. At the time, I had to log into PayPal to transfer funds to the bank checking account we used to pay bills.
Then a service called square came along and the benefit of that is a device used to work with a cc that hooks in the socket you'd use for listening on your smart phone which allowed payments to be made at events plus some other features.
For a small business square works pretty well. They charge two and three quarters percent based on the amount of the sale.
Then a service called square came along and the benefit of that is a device used to work with a cc that hooks in the socket you'd use for listening on your smart phone which allowed payments to be made at events plus some other features.
For a small business square works pretty well. They charge two and three quarters percent based on the amount of the sale.
pepeguitarra
Well-known
pepeguitarra
Well-known
My son is an officer in the US military and he qualifies for food stamps. He does not take them for pride, but that is to give you an idea that the money spent by the military is not in salaries.
pepeguitarra
Well-known
Debit card should be a NO NO!
If something goes wrong with your debit card, you lose.
If something goes wrong with your credit card, your bank loses.
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
I also have a Paypal account, and my account is as follows:
Basically, no problems …
AS long as you use the exactly same personal name for your Ebay account, the Paypal account, and your regular bank account that is connected with the Paypal account (this is in Continental Europe necessarily so, allegedly).
But IF you have a «complicated» name — special characters, e.g., or in my case, more forenames than common and a barreled surname, and even IF you're legally allowed to use a workaround or an ABBREVIATION of the name in question, the entire Ebay/Paypal system decouples.
It took me hours to convince the (obviously not so sharp) Ebay guys that I'm the very same person, albeit my bank account's name and the name on my tax papers that they wanted to see, use several variants of my name ... and then: the same procedure with the Paypal guys ———*ANNOYING!
Basically, no problems …
AS long as you use the exactly same personal name for your Ebay account, the Paypal account, and your regular bank account that is connected with the Paypal account (this is in Continental Europe necessarily so, allegedly).
But IF you have a «complicated» name — special characters, e.g., or in my case, more forenames than common and a barreled surname, and even IF you're legally allowed to use a workaround or an ABBREVIATION of the name in question, the entire Ebay/Paypal system decouples.
It took me hours to convince the (obviously not so sharp) Ebay guys that I'm the very same person, albeit my bank account's name and the name on my tax papers that they wanted to see, use several variants of my name ... and then: the same procedure with the Paypal guys ———*ANNOYING!
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
Wise advise, although I use a debit card as my main payment option on my Paypal account. Only keep the amount to be expended on it a time. Also, because the Paypal schema, it is usually faster to get a refund though Ebay than though the bank. My bank (I live on Mexico) took about a month to refund a charge to my credit card once. Palpal took about 1-2 weeks probably.
Bill Clark
Veteran
I set up PayPal for our TCPPA group. I had to call them as they wanted a check with "void" written across it and I explained who I was, position, etc. and I politely asked if I could email them a jpeg of a check (photographer group!)with void on it and they accepted that. I explained we were in dues paying season, truthful, and I'd like to get it set up on our web site. I gave them the URL. They then asked if I could use the icon to put on our web site. Sure! Tried to get it so as the funds would auto dump into our checking but of no avail at least then.
Always worked, never had any problems.
Always worked, never had any problems.
radi(c)al_cam
Well-known
Ouch. Well, a way to manipulate the expenditure figures…
[I know, that’s some cold comfort, but: in some European jurisdictions, it’s even worse! Particularly people who’re filling a very responsible post (in my country: e.g. judges), have the first 10 or so years a McJob-Salary BUT are NOT entitled to receive any social security means, or to practice any form of business (apart from academic publications) — so most of them are still completely dependent from their parents, or their spouse, or they must have inherited something… ]
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Roger,
If this is my story you are referring to, about my entire bank account being frozen the instant that a dishonest seller hit the "start a dispute", button, no you are not misunderstanding, because that is exactly how it works. People who are asserting that Paypal does not do this, have not read the current user agreement, or have not had it happen to them. It was for people who think that this CAN'T happen to them that I posted the short version of my story, so that they could learn something without having to learn it the painful way, like I did. Ignorance is bliss, right up until the time it's not and you are out $8,000.
You can go back and read my original post, but here are the provisos which flesh the story out a little more accurately as far as "can this same thing happen to me".
Technically, Paypal does not "freeze" your bank account in the legal sense that the IRS can freeze your bank account, but the effect is exactly the same-your money is not available to you until Paypal says it is. They hold it, as if it belongs to the buyer, until they make a decision. In our case, I sold an amplifier worth $8,000 for a friend of mine who did not have an account on the buying/selling site. The money went into my Paypal account. I transferred the money to my linked bank account, which is my only bank account. I wrote my friend a check for his $8,000. Some time later, the buyer destroyed the amp. Because he actually understood how Paypal rules work, and he was dishonest, and he knew how to game the system, he just filed a dispute with Paypal stating that the item was "not as advertised" and demanded a refund. Paypal, in these situations, instantly "freezes" all the money in your Paypal balance, up to the amount in question, which, in this case, was $8,000. If there is not $8,000 in your Paypal balance, they "freeze" whatever else they need in your linked bank account, up to the amount in question. I did not have a total of $8,000 in my bank account+paypal balance, so yes, Paypal froze me out of being able to access my liquid assets, and they will do the same to you in a similar situation. The only source of funds I had was my credit card, and it would stay that way until the case was adjudicated. I had taken photos of the amp before it was packed for shipment, and at various stages of the packing. None of that mattered because none of that proved that the amp was working when we shipped it.
In the absence of incontrovertible proof, Paypal always sides with the buyer whether he is lying or not.. It wasn't always that way, but has been that way for several years now. That is great if you are a buyer, but sellers are at the buyer's mercy.
Was our word against his, so Paypal sided with the buyer. My friend had to write him a check for $8,000 to make him go away, and to unfreeze my assets. So he was out an $8,000 amp, AND $8,000. Lesson learned.
Yes, the best way to avoid this is to link your Paypal account to a separate bank account with not much money in it, but this creates one problem as well, which no one has mentioned here. In our case, if my Paypal account had no money in it and had been linked to a separate bank account, with no money in it, and to a dormant credit card, and if Paypal had demanded that we refund this guy $8,000, we could have just ignored it, and there would have been no money for the dishonest buyer to get his hands on. BUT, the Paypal dispute remains open in perpetuity until that "debt" is paid off, and the seller can no longer use his Paypal account. Well, he can use it but every time he sells something and money goes into his Paypal account, it instantly is transferred to the Paypal account of the buyer who filed the dishonest claim. And if it had been originally an Ebay sale, because Paypal and ebay are still linked insofar as this is concerned, you would have to open a new ebay and a new paypal account under different names if you had not paid off the dishonest buyer, and thus lose whatever ebay goodwill you had built up over the years.
I write all this because, plainly, there are some people posting here who don't understand what they have actually agreed to when they signed the user agreement. I am not trying to be argumentative, rather just trying to let people learn from my bad experience instead of their own.
There are dishonest people in the world, and logic suggests that they buy and sell in equal numbers. If you are an honest buyer, Paypal protects you very well these days from unscrupulous sellers. Paypal offers no such protection to sellers.
user237428934
User deletion pending
I'm sorry to hear that you live in a country where companies have the option to block your account in the way you describe it. But why do you assume that it is the same in Europe? In Germany no company can do this and in all SEPA countries there are roughly the same regulations so this will be the same in France.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Larry,
Thanks very much for the clarification, which is very much what I needed. I hadn't realized I was referring to your case (and indeed may not have been), but you have clarified matters greatly, at least for me.
Cheers,
R.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Right. Each SEPA debit is subject to the account owners permission/acceptance - you can protest after the fact without even giving a reason (IIRC for two weeks) and the debit will be undone. Of course, you could still run into a situation where you owe Paypal the refund, but would have to proceed against the buyer and/or eBay over the item (or compensation for its loss).
panerai
Well-known
I'm curious. Didn't the buyer sign for the delivery?
Also. How much time after?
If buyer signed. Wouldn't he have made a claim then that the amp was damaged.
I would have fought it if he claimed even a day later it was damaged.
DON
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Whoa, I didn't say anything about Europe; the thought never crossed my mind; please do not misinterpret. What I was saying is true as far as it goes, but I make no assertions past that.
And, I'm happy to live here, but like any game anywhere, it helps to know the rules.
user237428934
User deletion pending
That's right, you didn't. But you were writing to Roger and he lives in France and the country is not unimportant regarding this subject matter.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
That's kind of my point, to let people know that it doesnt matter, because thats not how the Paypal user agreement is written. You are assuming a world ruled by precepts of justice and fair play. We don't live there.
Your point might be relevant to a shipping claim, where there was visible damage, (and even then, as I have also learned the hard way, even if you have taken photos of the actual item before it went into the box, and photos showing the careful internal packaging, if it arrives with damage to the electronics, but the outer box showed no damage, FedEx, for one, will not pay on a claim because if there is no demonstrable damage to the outside of the box, they claim that any damage to your item was due to improper internal packaging, because, obviously, there was no evidence of rough handling. But thats another tale of woe. I used to own a hi fi store.), but Paypal has different rules, and there is a legally binding document which every Paypal user has agreed to when they signed on to the service.
If the buyer claims the item is "not as advertised", that's all he needs to do to prevail in a dispute, unless the seller can prove otherwise, but it is usually going to be your word against his. In this case it was advertised as working. Buyers have six months to come back on a seller with a claim. He damaged it after he received it. It was a piece of tube electronics, and the extensive damage was internal. Nothing, even if it had been legitimate, which would have been discovered when he signed for the shipment. In this case, the buyer didn't read the manual, and did something which was plainly explained in the manual as would destroy the amp. He knew d..m well that he was the one who destroyed it, but he also knew how Paypal "protects" him.
We did "fight it". That was how I quickly got my education on the ins and outs of the Paypal user agreement......which I had not heretofore read and understood. I daresay this oversight was not unique to me.
My perception was originally much like yours, but it wasn't long before we were saying "Wait, this can't be happening." Not only can it happen, that is exactly how Paypal has written it up, so there is nothing to fight, really.
I should note how lucky I actually was, with the choice of friend I offered to sell something for on my account. Had he not coughed up the $8,000, I would have been the one liable for it.
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
When I sell on Ebay, sometimes I list it "as is", meaning no return. That way I protect myself.
I put lots of pics and offer to answer any question. Ive a good selling/buying record to back me up, so the buyer may feel at ease. Because most of the time Im selling used items, they can fail any moment, even if they arrive ok.
Most of the time I get my items sold with no problem. If the buyer has some complaining to do, we usually come to an agreement.
Like everything else on life, try to asset the risk, be careful, read the small letter and try to be smart.
I put lots of pics and offer to answer any question. Ive a good selling/buying record to back me up, so the buyer may feel at ease. Because most of the time Im selling used items, they can fail any moment, even if they arrive ok.
Most of the time I get my items sold with no problem. If the buyer has some complaining to do, we usually come to an agreement.
Like everything else on life, try to asset the risk, be careful, read the small letter and try to be smart.