Permawash -- Needed or Not?

[PATB]

Is permawash, or other washing aid, needed to properly wash film? I do not use one when developing at home. My workflow is essentially: a) develop (in DD-X or Clayton F76+), b) water as stop bath, c) fix (Clayton odorless fixer -- this is a non-hardening rapid fixer), d) Ilford wash method, e) Photoflo, then hang to dry.

However, the school where I do wet printing advices students to use a washing aid, and accordingly provides permawash. So does our school textbook ("Photography" by London and Upton).

So, do you use a washing aid? If so, how do you dispose it and how many times can you reuse it?

Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[MikeCassidy]

It helps clean; but film and plastic paper you can get away without it.
If you print on fiber you need to use it.

 

[Bryce]

I've read that it is useful for film as well as fiber paper because it reduces wash time and water usage.
I have never seen an explanation of when to consider it exhausted.
I have read that filtered seawater is similar enough to be used in its place.
A better answer would be nice, wouldn't it?

 

[MikeCassidy]

I mix it 1 to 9 one time use.

 

[MikeCassidy]

BUT I've got film 40 yrs old and still good; and back then I didnt use it - I didnt know it existed.

 

[rogerchristian]

With RC paper, it is not so much of an issue, just keep 'soaking time' and thus fixer absorption time, to a minimum, don't hold prints in a tray, process and get it to the wash.

The issue of long wash times was not much of an issue long ago, water was not so precious or expensive as it is now. The fix-neutralizing effects of Orbit Bath (now discontinued), Heico PermaWash and Ilford Wash Agent are probably beneficial enough to warrant their use.

I use it on film, just to be safe, and it is indispensible to reduce wash times with fiber-based papers.

 

[david b]

Use the Ilford method to wash the film and you will be fine.

After the fix:

Fill your tank, invert 10 times then dump.
Fill your tank, invert 20 times then dump.
Fill your tank, invert 40 times then dump.

Now your done.

 

[PATB]

Thanks for the reply everyone.

A follow up question, is it OK to simply dump it into the sewer system when done (just like a developer?)?

 

[drewbarb]

Using a Permawash can't hurt, but it's only necessary with fiber papers and when using fix with hardener for films. It will reduce was times. If you can't find it easily or don't want to add another step, don't worry about it.

I use Heico NH5 fix with hardener (I know, I know, modern films don't really need hardener- I've just always used it) so a permawash is really mandatory. Heico's permawash instructions indicate 3 oz. per gallon, and ridiculously long working life. I mix my fix and permawash at the same time, and recycle them both when the fix is exhausted, even though I could get more life from the permawash. If I'm not toning my fiber prints, I'll run them through permawash mixed with water and selenium- this gives them the archival permanence selenium affords, and condenses the two steps into one. I got the idea from George Tice, but I know other acknowledged master printers do this, too. If I'm planning to do further toning or bleaching, I use plain permawash. For RC papers (contacts) I don't bother with permawash.

No, it's not ok to dump permawash- it is pulling out un-used silver as well as removing the fixing agent. It needs to be recycled as toxic waste the same as fix and heavy metal toners. You should dump used permawash in with your spent fix, however you recycle or otherwise dispose of it.

 

[PATB]

Thanks Drew.

The school uses a Lauder Chemicals fixer, which I believe is hardening. That is probably the reason for the permawash. I just checked the Ilford pdfs on processing and there is no mention of using a washing aid. I guess I will put off the permawash plan for now.

 

[kaiyen]

Actually, it isn't needed specifically to combat fixer with hardener. It's dubbed "hypo-clear" because it's needed when using fixers that actuallly have hypo-something or other in it. Hypo Tholimate? Something like that. Kodak regular fixer has it, rapid fixers do not.

It doesn't make washing harder or easier when used with a non-hypo fixer regardless of whether a hardener was used (though hardeners in general make washing harder). It's just another wash step. Which can be useful, especially when dealing with films with extra sensitizing dyes like the t- & e-grain films from kodak and ilford.

I use it, but only because I haven't used up the bottle of perma-wash I bought.

allan