Photographer arrested at Texas Octoberfest gathering

You are certainly fit with the research, R.J.

According to the first draft of the Free Flow of Information Act of 2005, bloggers would be considered press, because they disseminate information.

So if Vogel is a blogger, he is protected by this law, yes?
 
Sorry I am so late to the party - this happened while I was on vacation. Of course, I have to weigh in on this...

The government wants (naturally) to protect people from sexual deviants, and there is strong motivation for them to do so - concerned parents often vote! Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue - and that includes appearing to be sympathetic to perverts. So they often pass laws that are later found to be illegal or unconstitutional.

Laws like this can have unintended consequences...we all understand that they original intent was to protect children from exploitation - a laudable goal. However, they may end up putting legitimate photographers in jail; not a good thing at all.

Let's take a look at this one:

§ 21.15. IMPROPER[0] PHOTOGRAPHY[0] OR VISUAL
RECORDING. (a) In this section, "promote" has the meaning
assigned by Section 43.21.
(b) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) photographs or by videotape or other electronic
means visually records another:
(A) without the other person's consent; and
(B) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual
desire of any person; or
(2) knowing the character and content of the
photograph or recording, promotes a photograph or visual recording
described by Subdivision (1).
(c) An offense under this section is a state jail felony.
(d) If conduct that constitutes an offense under this
section also constitutes an offense under any other law, the actor
may be prosecuted under this section or the other law.

Added by Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 458, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.
Amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 500, § 1, eff. Sept. 1,
2003.

The important bit here is 'intent'. Did you catch that? IANAL - but mens rea is an important part of many crimes. It means if you don't have criminal intent, you can't commit the crime.

However, how does the state prove what your mental state was? After all, they have to prove intent - the accused does not have to prove they didn't have intent. In the USA, 'innocent until proven guilty' means that the prosecution has to prove your intent if that is a facet of the crime.

If you have a digital camera and you take nothing but closeup shots of breasts and butts (clothed), or 'upskirt' shots of women who wear dresses, then it would seem as if you are mostly interested in making photographs that are intended to produce sexual arousal in anyone, including yourself. If the police, through the use of search warrants, can determine that you distribute photos like this via email or post them on a website, then your goose is probably cooked.

I suspect that these type of laws will continue to be passed. In the age of very small digital cameras, sexual deviants can get their jollies very easily this way. The big problem is that such laws tend to be over-reaching in an attempt to cover every angle - and they can ensnare those who are innocent of any intent to commit any crime. Prosecuters and police who are given big tools tend to use them that way - and if they have malice themselves, they can do a great deal of damage.

Imagine someone taking a photo of Britany Spears while she was trolloping by on some Texas street. Now, if the photographer knows that someone else will get their jollies by seeing that photo - they've committed the same crime as the upskirt photographer and they face the same jail term.

And on a more general note - someone tell me HOW a person can be injured if their anonymous body part is displayed on the web or via email and some pervert gets off on it? Is there some 'karma' thing happening that attaches to the person whose breast or butt was photographed in a close up? If the person could be recognized, that's one thing, but when it is just a body part? Where is the victim if the police can't even identify them?

I'm serious here. Imagine some pervert who gets gratification from bald heads. A photographer gets a photo of my bald pate and sends it around. How am I injured when some nutbar looks at it and does naughty things to himself while looking at my bald head?

Somebody tell me what children are 'protected' by this law - and how they are not 'protected' if the law does not exist?

And hey, I grew up with National Geographic and Sears Roebuck catalogs laying around, you guys know what I mean. Were those photographers supposed to be arrested and put in jail?

Oh, one last thing...this is sure to tick everyone with kids off...

Last week while I was on vacation, my wife and my friends and I went to a popular restaurant. It was full, so we had to wait in the lobby, which got really crowded. A family came in - about five of them were girls under the age of majority. All the girls wore jeans that were cut below the hipline. I remember when showing belly-buttons was daring - these were several inches below that. Their shirts covered their belly buttons, but failed to cover the area of skin that exists below that down to nearly you-know-what. I have no idea what was holding their pants up, in fact. OK, parents - you want to protect your children from predators - what about starting by making them dress a tiny bit less like sluts on display?

No, I don't believe that a woman is 'asking for it' if something bad happens. But let's face it - we live in a society that values and glorifies youth and sexuality. Pop icons are young, thin, and very clearly sexually displayed. Brittany Spears? Paris Hilton? Like them or despise them, they are still the images we seem to value as a society.

And then, after telling consumers that this is what they should lust after, we punish the poor freaks who actually do. Well, if they take photos of it, anyway.

Strange world...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Kevin said:
You are certainly fit with the research, R.J.

According to the first draft of the Free Flow of Information Act of 2005, bloggers would be considered press, because they disseminate information.

So if Vogel is a blogger, he is protected by this law, yes?

It appears that under the proposed law, bloggers are not going to be considered journalists.

The police charged Vogel under a new Texas law:

State Rep. Domingo Garcia, D-Dallas, wrote the law in 2001 to outlaw "video voyeurs" and hidden-camera taping in bedrooms, bathrooms and locker rooms. The law was expanded in 2003 to include Web cams and any kind of photography.
It's called the "up-the-skirt law," said an assistant to state Rep. Senfronia Thompson, D-Houston, author of the 2003 update.
The law has nabbed college students secretly videotaping sex with their dates, business owners with bathroom spy cams and even one Austin man caught stooping to take camera-phone pics of passing women.
Thompson meant to outlaw all suggestive photographs taken without the subject's permission, said Patrick Johnson, an assistant in her office.
"This was intended to prohibit any secret filming or photography of people for this kind of purpose," he said by phone from Austin.
Nobody wants some disgusting creep with a little camera prowling around the dressing room or the swimming pool. Particularly not around kids.
But should it be illegal to take pictures in the crowd at a public festival?
"Absolutely," he said. "They didn't intend for anyone to take their picture."
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/12890251.htm
Your first point about how are they going to prove that Vogel intended to use the images for sexual gratification is a good one. The burden of proof is on the state.

R.J.
 
bmattock said:
Sorry I am so late to the party - this happened while I was on vacation. Of course, I have to weigh in on this...

The government wants (naturally) to protect people from sexual deviants, and there is strong motivation for them to do so - concerned parents often vote! Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue - and that includes appearing to be sympathetic to perverts. So they often pass laws that are later found to be illegal or unconstitutional.

Laws like this can have unintended consequences...we all understand that they original intent was to protect children from exploitation - a laudable goal. However, they may end up putting legitimate photographers in jail; not a good thing at all....

Ok Bill, picture this scenario. Three marines go to a beach in Texas with a new digital camera that has a 10X zoom. They have a few beers and decide to photograph some women wearing thong bikini bottoms. Someone calls the police and these guys have to answer to charges of "improper photography." Do you think they should be treated a felons?

It's possible that if you're convicted of this crime, you may have to register as a sex offender.


R.J.
 
RJBender said:
Ok Bill, picture this scenario. Three marines go to a beach in Texas with a new digital camera that has a 10X zoom. They have a few beers and decide to photograph some women wearing thong bikini bottoms. Someone calls the police and these guys have to answer to charges of "improper photography." Do you think they should be treated a felons?

It's possible that if you're convicted of this crime, you may have to register as a sex offender.

R.J.

Yes, I agree. I get angry about these things. Parents may well applaud, but too many people think that laws like this will only ever net bad guys, never innocent people who are the victims of overzealous cops. Laws like this are too broad, can be interpreted too many ways - and innocent people will end up in prison.

We all tsk, tsk, and and nod our heads when we hear about some abuse where grandparents are arrested and jailed for taking a photo of their naked grandbaby, but there is no outrage that this nonsense is going on. Apparently, it's ok with us as long as it is not OUR grandparents being sent to prison.

And the worst of it - if you criticize the law - you "must be one of them there perverts" - or why would you bother?

Pfah. I have to stop worrying about this, or I'd explode.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
RJBender said:
I exercise regularly with Google, Kevin.

R.J.

Good one! I use Yahoo News and Google News search features - I set up searches for subjects that interest me and let them email me with stuff I find interesting.

Funny thing is, you can find out more by being able to properly format a search query in Google than you can just about anything else.

My two most valued skills, based on how often I use them and how much they help me on a daily basis: typing and formatting search parameters. With that, I can find out anything else I might not know.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Yeah, the opinions seem to be:
1) Vogel is 60 years old and therefore a creep for photographing clothed body parts and deserves to be arrested.
2) What is the future of photography if the police can arrest people for "improper photography"?

R.J.
 
RJBender said:
Yeah, the opinions seem to be:
1) Vogel is 60 years old and therefore a creep for photographing clothed body parts and deserves to be arrested.

And they put the police in charge of deciding what is and is not 'improper photography.' This is never a good idea. That job belongs to the judicial branch, not the executive.

2) What is the future of photography if the police can arrest people for "improper photography"?
R.J.

What is the future of freedom when anyone in authority can abrogate your rights to be free from unlawful search and seizure upon mere whim? The fourth amendment is now officially bogroll if this stands.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
JoeFriday said:
http://www.nbc5i.com/news/5086442/detail.html

the police are clearly spinning this story as a 'sexual predator' situation.. I'm rather concerned about this one.. particularly the police officer who says "You're committing an offense if, a) you're taking a picture of a person who hasn't given you consent to do so, and b) that picture is for the sexual gratification of any person."

of course it's the police officer who arrested the man for taking photos in a public place, then searched through the photos he had taken, thus determining in his opinion that the photos were of a sexual nature

I'm fairly certain the police violated his rights a few times during the proceedings.. and by this cop's standard, quite a few of us in RFF could be guilty of taking photos of attractive women without their consent


quote from the article:
Photography in a public place is not illegal. Southlake police, however, said the nature of the pictures Vogel took violated state law.

"You're committing an offense if, a) you're taking a picture of a person who hasn't given you consent to do so, and b) that picture is for the sexual gratification of any person," Douglas said.

I think there maybe more than meets the eye on this one, I suspect he has some shots that the subjects would not be happy with.
 
dostacos said:
quote from the article:
Photography in a public place is not illegal. Southlake police, however, said the nature of the pictures Vogel took violated state law.

"You're committing an offense if, a) you're taking a picture of a person who hasn't given you consent to do so, and b) that picture is for the sexual gratification of any person," Douglas said.

I think there maybe more than meets the eye on this one, I suspect he has some shots that the subjects would not be happy with.

I agree that is the law. However, the question remains, what is "for the sexual gratification of any person?" Right now, it appears to be up to the police.

I don't care WHAT the images were of - who has the right to demand to examine the contents of your camera on mere suspicion? In the USA, he should have been perfectly within his rights to tell them to go pound sand, as I have done (though not in Texas). No search warrant, no pictures. What if it had been a film camera?

On another point - I understand that the purpose of the law is to prevent perverts from taking photos of people's clothed crotches, etc. Well, anyone who gets off on that is quite a freak. I agree. Now tell me what harm they have done to the 'victim' of this crime.

If I'm in public and I see someone talking my photo, that's too bad for me. If they later take that photo into photoshop and crop it and stare at my massive package, what harm has been done to me? How have I been injured in any way?

I grew up in the 1960's with copies of National Geographic on the coffee table. I will just say that I appreciated the photos I saw in that magazine. I'm sure the photographers had some idea what effect some of those photos would have.

Should those photographers be in prison? Under today's Texas law, they could be arrested and prosecuted for the photos they took.

What about ATM machine cameras? They take pictures without my consent. What if some freak reviews those photos as part of his job and also has some kind of ATM-cam fetish? That would make the bank a criminal, right?

The law is nonsensical, is what I'm trying to say. Their intent was noble - they wanted to stop those nasty 'upskirt' cell phone photographers. But this is too broad by half - it can be applied to anyone with a camera if the police say so.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
Is this another reason to use film? Do you think "Barnie Fifes" is Texas will open the back and pull out the film to look at it? I wouldn't be surprised, and then they'll probably ask where the image is and arrest you for hiding evidence. This law is disturbing and when challenged will be thrown out. My daughters both played basketball and you know what kind of uniforms they wear, sarcasim laid on heavily!!!
 
dostacos said:
I think there maybe more than meets the eye on this one, I suspect he has some shots that the subjects would not be happy with.

We don't know anything about those images except that they were digital. If you take photos of strangers in Texas and make them upset, they can call the police and charge you with a felony, "improper photgraphy".

At first, I thought these might be "x ray" or "upskirt" type photos. Now it sounds like they are just photos of clothed body parts. Even if you think Vogel is creepy, this law is creepier.


R.J.
 
Based on the superficiality and sensationalism of news reporting these days, I'd say it's an open question, without further info (which we're not going to get) whether (A) it was a gross abuse by the police, or (B) he really was a creep and deserved everything he got. Sadly, in either case, the damage is done, but the repair is unlikely.
 
JohnL said:
Based on the superficiality and sensationalism of news reporting these days, I'd say it's an open question, without further info (which we're not going to get) whether (A) it was a gross abuse by the police, or (B) he really was a creep and deserved everything he got. Sadly, in either case, the damage is done, but the repair is unlikely.

Even creeps don't deserve to be arrested for taking pictures in public of clothed people. I could easily take hi-rez photos of the whole person and crop out the parts I wanted later if I were such a freakazoid. Gonna put everybody who takes a picture in public in jail? That's the only way to stop the guys who 'deserve it'.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
bmattock said:
Even creeps don't deserve to be arrested for taking pictures in public of clothed people. I could easily take hi-rez photos of the whole person and crop out the parts I wanted later if I were such a freakazoid. Gonna put everybody who takes a picture in public in jail? That's the only way to stop the guys who 'deserve it'.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

I agree, Bill, but I cannot imagine there was not something about the way he was behaving that sounded an alarm with someone. If not, then we really have a problem.
 
JohnL said:
Based on the superficiality and sensationalism of news reporting these days, I'd say it's an open question, without further info (which we're not going to get) whether (A) it was a gross abuse by the police, or (B) he really was a creep and deserved everything he got. Sadly, in either case, the damage is done, but the repair is unlikely.

Sorry but being a creep isn't a crime. We have to have some tolerance beyond the norms. We are seeing a rash of vile accusations against normal (slightly aged) men with cameras in the UK. Why? Well I suspect for the same reason that aged women in the witch trials were fair game, they're a bit creepy..

Unless he was taking obscene naked pictures of people *without their consent* I'd suggest we line up on the side of some liberty and freedom. If he was taking up the skirt pictures then do him for making a nuisance.
 
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