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I have read all the posts, and I swore to myself that I wouldn't get involved, but...

Mr. Mattock, you keep saying there is nothing in the US Constitution that allows for the establishment of a government supported health care system in the US. But, the Constitution does specifically talk about the GENERAL WELFARE of the people. Is proper health care for all not in the best interests for the general welfare of the people? If not, please tell me. Why are almost half of the personal bankruptcies in the US related to health costs? (That includes people who have health insurance) Does that not impact the general welfare of the people?

As to the radio personalities that feed the fringe, Michael Savage chose his last name because it describes his attitudes towards life and his fellow man.

Roger, I know that the US and England (even though you now live in France) are essentially the same countries divided by a common language, but the proper pronunciation of Rush's last name is: Phlegmball.
 
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climbing_vine said:
digitalintrigue said:
Okay, prove your "fact". Here's my anecdote: in my years on this earth, I have never encountered a single American who "chose" not to buy insurance, unless the "choice" was between insurance and rent or food.
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Well you've met one person right here in this thread. 🙂

Medical care is too expensive to take "personal responsibility" for, thanks to the distorting power of large non-competitive oligopolies. More empty rhetoric.
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I agree, it is expensive due to the distorting power of government, by not providing a truly competitive marketplace.

Look at the competition in Lasik and cosmetic surgery, which is not covered by insurance. Prices in those fields are going DOWN...and quality is going UP...providers must invest in the latest equipment and technologies, and they must lower the prices in order to be competitive as it is a competitive field.

This is what we need in general healthcare...competition does this every time it is tried.
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digitalintrigue said:
Well you've met one person right here in this thread. 🙂
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Enlighten me. 🙄 Given your fondness for transparent propaganda, you don't want to say "me" because nobody will believe you. No offense.

I agree, it is expensive due to the distorting power of government, by not providing a truly competitive marketplace.
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WELL, now we certainly have hit on something interesting! Are you saying that the market tended naturally to a state of oligopoly control and that it is the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to level it? Because I would certainly agree, but it runs counter to the rest of the unsupported nonsense in this thread...

Look at the competition in Lasik and cosmetic surgery, which is not covered by insurance. Prices in those fields are going DOWN...and quality is going UP...providers must invest in the latest equipment and technologies, and they must lower the prices in order to be competitive as it is a competitive field.
Click to expand...

Because it is an elective luxury good with very low overhead. Comparing it to cancer treatments or repair of a body destroyed in a car wreck is just profoundly, profoundly dumb.

This is what we need in general healthcare...competition does this every time it is tried.
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No, in fact, it doesn't. Only when there is a profit to be made, and providing reasonable medical care to everyone self-evidently is not profitable (as has been pointed out hundreds of times in this thread).

And letting large corporations do as they wish results in precisely the opposite of competition, as you seem to have finally admitted. Corporatism is simply communism with a different name for the ruling class. Identical in every detail.
 
Okay, prove your "fact". Here's my anecdote: in my years on this earth, I have never encountered a single American who "chose" not to buy insurance, unless the "choice" was between insurance and rent or food.
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I'm one. I chose not to. And I was able to afford food, housing, & insurance. At 47 I did decide to buy it.

One thing no one has questioned is how are we going to pay for it? Oh yeah...they are going to tax the hell out of us for what 3-4 years before it even goes into effect!
 
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climbing_vine said:
Enlighten me. 🙄 Given your fondness for transparent propaganda, you don't want to say "me" because nobody will believe you. No offense.
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You aren't reading the thread very closely. Now there are two in the thread. 🙂



WELL, now we certainly have hit on something interesting! Are you saying that the market tended naturally to a state of oligopoly control and that it is the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to level it? Because I would certainly agree, but it runs counter to the rest of the unsupported nonsense in this thread...
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No, I meant what I wrote.

Because it is an elective luxury good with very low overhead. Comparing it to cancer treatments or repair of a body destroyed in a car wreck is just profoundly, profoundly dumb.
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Thanks for your eloquence.
 
Brad Bireley said:
A large percentage of the population in the US chooses NOT to buy health insurance. That is a fact, it's not populism.

I'm one. I chose not to. And I was able to afford food, housing, & insurance. At 47 I did decide to buy it.
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Okay, there's one. Now let's ask you a question: what did you plan to do if you encountered a serious medical problem? Go to the ER, get treated, and not pay the bill? Hey, guess who covers that...

One thing no one has questioned is how are we going to pay for it? Oh yeah...they are going to tax the hell out of us for what 3-4 years before it even goes into effect!
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... I do, with higher taxes and insurance premiums. Thanks, genius!

This thread features an astounding lack of awareness of both cause and effect, and events that may happen further out than five minutes from now.
 
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Brad Bireley said:
One thing no one has questioned is how are we going to pay for it? Oh yeah...they are going to tax the hell out of us for what 3-4 years before it even goes into effect!
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If your country were adopt a single payer system (I realize that's not currently on the table) you wouldn't need to figure out how to pay for it, but how to spend all the money that would be saved. Americans pay the most per capita for health care, that in spite of the fact that the coverage is spotty for most and actually non-existent for many who fall within the gap between being able to afford private insurance and being eligible for medicare or medicaid.
 
Brad Bireley said:
A large percentage of the population in the US chooses NOT to buy health insurance. That is a fact, it's not populism.

I'm one. I chose not to. And I was able to afford food, housing, & insurance. At 47 I did decide to buy it.

One thing no one has questioned is how are we going to pay for it? Oh yeah...they are going to tax the hell out of us for what 3-4 years before it even goes into effect!
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Dear Brad,

Ever have much wrong with you before you were 47?

Ever played Russian roulette? If you load only one chamber, the odds are quite good.

In October 2009 I spent eight days in hospital, half of it intensive care. The last night I'd spent in hospital before that was May 1953. So I didn't need medical insurance for 56 years, did I? And when I told my father about this, he said, "I haven't spent a night in hospital since I had appendicitis, when I was 18." That was 1945.

Cheers,

R.
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climbing_vine said:
Brad Bireley said:
Okay, there's one. Now let's ask you a question: what did you plan to do if you encountered a serious medical problem? Go to the ER, get treated, and not pay the bill? Hey, guess who covers that...



... I do, with higher taxes and insurance premiums. Thanks, genius!

This thread features an astounding lack of awareness of both cause and effect, and events that may happen further out than five minutes from now.
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Who do you think is going to cover all of the people(the lazy people who do not want to work) who are not going to pay for any of the health care insurance because they do not work?
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climbing_vine said:
Since I only echoed what you wrote, I'm not sure what you think the discrepancy is.
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It is self-evident, simply by reading. Might want to try it sometime.



And again, you ignore a practical hole in your ideology.
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It is one thing to state that something exists. It is another to actually make a point about it. If the best you can do is say something is 'dumb' it is probably best not to try the latter.
 
Brad Bireley said:
Who do you think is going to cover all of the people(the lazy people who do not want to work) who are not going to pay for any of the health care insurance because they do not work?
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The same people that pay for people like you, you holier-than-thou ass. Except it will be cheaper because some of the expensive middle-men will be cut out.
 
People opposed to government supported healthcare keep dragging the red herring of "more choice" and "competition" as the cure for our health care mess. But, when one or two companies control 95% of the health care market in the US, could you please tell me, what is your definition of "competition?" So, rather than the "distorting power of government" causing high costs, as Digitalintrigue maintains, it is the exemption from anti-trust laws that contributes far more significantly to the high cost of health care in the US. Where is there competition and/or more choice in a monopolistic system?
 
Roger Hicks said:
Brad Bireley said:
Dear Brad,

Ever have much wrong with you before you were 47?

Ever played Russian roulette? If you load only one chamber, the odds are quite good.

In October 2009 I spent eight days in hospital, half of it intensive care. The last night I'd spent in hospital before that was May 1953. So I didn't need medical insurance for 56 years, did I? And when I told my father about this, he said, "I haven't spent a night in hospital since I had appendicitis, when I was 18." That was 1945.

Cheers,

R.
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I didn't say I was smart for not having insurance 🙂 just that I was able to afford it.
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climbing_vine said:
Enlighten me. 🙄 Given your fondness for transparent propaganda, you don't want to say "me" because nobody will believe you. No offense.



WELL, now we certainly have hit on something interesting! Are you saying that the market tended naturally to a state of oligopoly control and that it is the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to level it? Because I would certainly agree, but it runs counter to the rest of the unsupported nonsense in this thread...



Because it is an elective luxury good with very low overhead. Comparing it to cancer treatments or repair of a body destroyed in a car wreck is just profoundly, profoundly dumb.



No, in fact, it doesn't. Only when there is a profit to be made, and providing reasonable medical care to everyone self-evidently is not profitable (as has been pointed out hundreds of times in this thread).

And letting large corporations do as they wish results in precisely the opposite of competition, as you seem to have finally admitted. Corporatism is simply communism with a different name for the ruling class. Identical in every detail.
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Dear Brian,

Exactly.

You are of course aware of the difference between capitalism and communism. Under capitalism, man is exploited by man. Under communism, it's the other way around.

The subtleties of a mixed economy are too deep for the extremists on either side.

Cheers,

R.
 
I suggest we should have single payer auto insurance, term life insurance, property insurance, and car insurance.

We don't need all these insurance companies, they are all evil greed mongers. They don't care about fixing my car, or Aunt Bee's thyroid. All they want is profit!

Therefore, we should have a takeover of all insurance by the government.

I'm officially changing my opinion, thanks to everyone in this thread who has managed to sway me.

🙂
 
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