ITD
Member
Totally agree, although many people in my experience (UK-centric, rather than US) would not make the connection of limiting trial by jury to trial by government. We'd probably better off if they did.kjoosten said:
The idea has been tossed about in the UK, for 'complicated' cases, such as those involving high finance, typically following complaints by convicted white collar criminals who claim that the average juror could not possibly understand the procedings well enough to reliably convict.
Personally I think this is incredibly patronizing and self serving. Whatever the failings of the jury system, at least there is a group of normal people in there connecting the administration of justice back to the rest of us. Compare this to either an appointee who wants to maintain good relations with a patron or an elected official who plays to the crowd in order to ensure re-election.
R
ruben
Guest
Some annoying thoughts.
1) have you noticed the hollywood stereotype case of the photographer sexually abusing his model ?
2) True I have said that sexual perversion is a quite well hidden characteristics of the bearers of this desease. But Bob is a 60 years old man. Have been produced any antecedents about it connecting him to other previous cases? This desease comes from childhood and it will be very strange to awaken out of the blue.
3) Have other sexually abused models taken advantage of the trial to proclaim their attack or abuse by Bob ?
4) Have any porno pics been showed, made by Bob in general, and showing this female in particular ?
Cheers,
Ruben
1) have you noticed the hollywood stereotype case of the photographer sexually abusing his model ?
2) True I have said that sexual perversion is a quite well hidden characteristics of the bearers of this desease. But Bob is a 60 years old man. Have been produced any antecedents about it connecting him to other previous cases? This desease comes from childhood and it will be very strange to awaken out of the blue.
3) Have other sexually abused models taken advantage of the trial to proclaim their attack or abuse by Bob ?
4) Have any porno pics been showed, made by Bob in general, and showing this female in particular ?
Cheers,
Ruben
Krosya
Konicaze
Didier said:
One - you were not there and all the info you have is from the internet and Bob himself - so you really don't know what was proven and what was not. Unless you were in that jury box - all you have is your own opinion, which may be far from reality. Seems odd that you question the whole system here, and not a one person, who was already found guilty.
And second, lets say you are right - Bob has many reasons to appeal.
Let me ask you - why you feel so strongly about this? I mean, you may or may not like Bob, but that has nothing to do with the case. You base all your arguments on a hearsay, not facts. We know very few facts, but even based on them if doesn't look very good for Bob. I'm sure police had far more facts.
Oh yeah - as Bob was asking mor money - does anyone know if he has any camera gear to sell? Seems odd if he still has money and time to run websites, write to forums, etc, but not look for a better lawyer/defence?
Very odd case if you ask me.
Krosya
Konicaze
ruben said:
Thats simple - he didn't do anything lol
V
varjag
Guest
Dunno, American jury system certainly doesn't seem like the worst one around. Otherwise it'd be copied in about every dictatorship.. just look how "president", a concept glorified by U.S. example, became a hideout for your petty dictators throughout the continents.
In USSR we used to have three judge system. In folklore, two of the judges were referred as "nodders", since they weren't any cases of them questioning the ruling of chairman judge.
Then somewhere in the 1990s, Russia reintroduced (first time since 1917) jury courts as an option on request of suspect. There were many complaints by prosecution for jury being "too soft" and siding with suspects; in reality however, it was down to incompetent Soviet school of prosecution, who traditionally relied on loyal judges, negligence to procedure, and physical torture here and there. It just couldn't compete on level playing field with defense, the side that was in traditionally unfavorable position before. Now under stronger Putin's rule, Russia is getting rid of jury system again, I wonder why.
As to the Bob case, yes, we don't know the facts. But I see several people here are worked over his "sexual behavior", "perversion" or "deviations", barely (if at all) mentioning the victim. People, it's a MANSLAUGHTER CASE! I sure hope the jury in VA focused on that and the evidence, rather than enforcing sen. Craig's standards of morality.
In USSR we used to have three judge system. In folklore, two of the judges were referred as "nodders", since they weren't any cases of them questioning the ruling of chairman judge.
Then somewhere in the 1990s, Russia reintroduced (first time since 1917) jury courts as an option on request of suspect. There were many complaints by prosecution for jury being "too soft" and siding with suspects; in reality however, it was down to incompetent Soviet school of prosecution, who traditionally relied on loyal judges, negligence to procedure, and physical torture here and there. It just couldn't compete on level playing field with defense, the side that was in traditionally unfavorable position before. Now under stronger Putin's rule, Russia is getting rid of jury system again, I wonder why.
As to the Bob case, yes, we don't know the facts. But I see several people here are worked over his "sexual behavior", "perversion" or "deviations", barely (if at all) mentioning the victim. People, it's a MANSLAUGHTER CASE! I sure hope the jury in VA focused on that and the evidence, rather than enforcing sen. Craig's standards of morality.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
1. In the U.S., he has to have been found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt." A very high standard.
2. He could have chosen to be tried by a judge instead; I'm sure his counsel advised a jury trial.
3. There has been no "rush to justice" here, considering how long it has taken to get this case to a verdict. Defendants have the right to a speedy trial, but I'm always amazed at how long the process takes -- which frequently works to the advantage of the defendant.
4. If indeed there have been improprieties in the handling of the case, then Mr. Shell should have grounds for an appeal. And remember, "if you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you."
I don't think we can sit here and opine on what went on at the trial, considering we haven't been privy to what the jury heard. Is 30+ years excessive? Maybe -- but he was found guilty of multiple offenses besides involuntary manslaughter. I don't know what the Virginia sentencing guidelines are.
I agree that it's pure snobbery or prejudice to take potshots at this trial, purely by virtue of its being held in the South. But sometimes there's a kernel of truth to stereotypes -- did you know his full name is Robert E. Lee Shell?
2. He could have chosen to be tried by a judge instead; I'm sure his counsel advised a jury trial.
3. There has been no "rush to justice" here, considering how long it has taken to get this case to a verdict. Defendants have the right to a speedy trial, but I'm always amazed at how long the process takes -- which frequently works to the advantage of the defendant.
4. If indeed there have been improprieties in the handling of the case, then Mr. Shell should have grounds for an appeal. And remember, "if you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you."
I don't think we can sit here and opine on what went on at the trial, considering we haven't been privy to what the jury heard. Is 30+ years excessive? Maybe -- but he was found guilty of multiple offenses besides involuntary manslaughter. I don't know what the Virginia sentencing guidelines are.
I agree that it's pure snobbery or prejudice to take potshots at this trial, purely by virtue of its being held in the South. But sometimes there's a kernel of truth to stereotypes -- did you know his full name is Robert E. Lee Shell?
Bill58
Native Texan
Is this the same guy who co-invented the Wein Cell? If so, it's too bad.
In my opinion, the American criminal justice system is far from perfect, but certainly the best in the world as far as balancing the rights of the accused vs. the rights of an orderly society. Certainly there have been abuses in favor of both sides, but it continues to evolve. That's the hallmark of a democratic society.
In my opinion, the American criminal justice system is far from perfect, but certainly the best in the world as far as balancing the rights of the accused vs. the rights of an orderly society. Certainly there have been abuses in favor of both sides, but it continues to evolve. That's the hallmark of a democratic society.
Krosya
Konicaze
Jury or no Jury
Jury or no Jury
I really don't understand why some people feel that jury trial is bad or unfair.
Simple math - is it more difficult to convince 1 person (judge) or 12 different people (jury), from different walks of life, different backgrounds, views, etc - all have to agree on verdict 100% in capital case.?
I'm sorry, but it's a no brainer to me - jury is a far more fair way to go.
Jury or no Jury
I really don't understand why some people feel that jury trial is bad or unfair.
Simple math - is it more difficult to convince 1 person (judge) or 12 different people (jury), from different walks of life, different backgrounds, views, etc - all have to agree on verdict 100% in capital case.?
I'm sorry, but it's a no brainer to me - jury is a far more fair way to go.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
For O.J. Simpson a jury trial sure worked out well! (That was a cheap shot; sorry. In that case, if the jury believed the prosecution didn't meet its burden of proof, then acquittal was appropriate.)
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
I can cook a excellent breakfast of backbacon and eggs.
Krosya
Konicaze
memphis said:
Oh trust me - had this girl been my sister or a daughter - Bob Shell wouldn't have to worry about any jail time........
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
memphis said:
One minor point in that OJ used to shill for Hertz, not Avis.
back alley
IMAGES
this thread is getting very close to being closed...
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
there been have alot of good risque threads on the RFF lately.
they are as enjoyable as a hot spicy taco.
they are as enjoyable as a hot spicy taco.
Sanders McNew
Rolleiflex User
Al Patterson said:
Better yet:
The United States Supreme Court case that struck down Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute, the "Racial Integrity Act of 1924," was called Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967).
... proving, once again, that the Almighty is not without a sense of irony.
ernstk
Retro Renaissance
back alley said:
Joe, Why is that? It's an interesting thread with some challenging viewpoints being expressed on both sides.
By it's nature, it's going to be an emotive topic and some people will be passionate in their views.
I fail to see why that warrants the thread being closed.
Regards
Ernst
Krosya
Konicaze
back alley said:
Why is that, Joe? Ot's OT,so it's in a right section of the forum. It's somewhat related to photography. Or we can't express our opinions on this? It's a discussion - some agree with others, some don't - doesn't mean I wouldn't share a beer with anyone here, no matter what their views on this are.
I think it's an interesting topic and should be Ok to be discussed, however emotional it may seem.
Just my opinion.
MartinP
Veteran
It might sound like I am sucking up to the mods, but I think any useful purpose has long since gone from the thread and it should be closed.
There appears to be a slanging match going on with no benefit to anyone, unless their ego happens to be improved by their favoured stereotype being "on top" at any particular moment.
There appears to be a slanging match going on with no benefit to anyone, unless their ego happens to be improved by their favoured stereotype being "on top" at any particular moment.
this thread is closed, not because of the subject matter, but because of how people are treating each other. too much fighting, not enough civil discussion.
Stephen
Stephen
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