Photographer Meets Homeland Security Agents

[bmattock]

Just be aware of your rights as a photographer, be civil in all dealing with authorities, and do not cave in when you are right. Remember, we still have the legal right to photograph in public places. Just be sure you know what is public and what is not...

- Randy

I agree, Randy. As you said, if you're not polite, you could end up being arrested for "Felony contempt of cop" which basically means they put the habeus grabbus on you for being a bigmouth. They'll figure out some 'dumb after dark' charge to stick you with later.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

I too have had to adjust my shooting of kids lately, so now I only do it with my clothes on. No more naked photography! Just kidding. As a dad who takes lots of pictures of his young kids, I make sure people know they're MY kids, and I never shoot other kids (but then again, why would I?). Or almost. Last weekend at a big fair, I photographed a friend's kid on a bunji jump ride, but made sure to make contact with him first so all the waiting parents knew I wasn't some pervert.

Bravo to Bill for pointing out our rights and representing a view that we can and should stand up to fear and official thuggery. As an attorney myself, let me point out that there is a tort called "false arrest," so depending on the circumstances an overzealous security person may be committing a compensable wrong. If we don't stand up for our rights, they certainly will disappear.

I've taken plenty of pictures of kids - and I have no children.

I wish I knew what the right answer is. But giving up my right to take photographs of anything (or anyone) I please in public can't be it, can it?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[wlewisiii]

For those living in the US, on this page http://www.aclu.org/Files/Files.cfm?ID=10042&c=184 is a pdf file of a handy to print out listing of your rights when stopped by the police. It simply reitterates what was in this thread, but it might not be a bad idea to have a copy of it printed out and in your camera bag or wallet.

As to the meta questions of this thread, I don't know what's legal or not anymore, either.

William

 

[Heath]

Five cameras! were you on a mission?? (humour)

Jan

My mission was, (as I chose to accept it) to test out my Neoca, Canon Eos 100F and my Selfix 20.

So far my mission has been successful, with the results from the Neoca being made public today. So far pleasing results with minor oporator error.

Will post in separate thread.

Heath

 

[jamiewakeham]

Three cross-atlantic observations:

1) I don't believe that the situation is that bad over here yet; I rather think that AP is (understandably and justifiably) getting very excited over a very few incidents.

2) I really don't think there are a *lot* of sick people out there. I thinki there are very few, I think that that number is not on the rise at all (merely our perception of that number and that risk) and I'm sure that we do our children much more harm by overprotecting them from this percieved risk than by letting them get the hell on with life. I'm a teacher, and I'm a bit tired of kids who quite honestly believe that it's impossible to walk two miles at a time, because they've never been allowed to do it.

3) ...'may be committing a compensable wrong'
Is it just me, or is this a really strange way to look at things? Maybe the security guy could have done something for which he should be punished, but why should that benefit you? More of a comment on the whole blame/compensation culture, really...

Jamie

 

[Skinny McGee]

Cameras don't kill people people kill people

 

[pradeep1]

I've found this downloadable "The Photographer's Rights" sheet from a USA based lawyer to be useful.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

 

[tamerlin]

These days, when I'm faced with a young person who is upset, happy, whatever, I think twice about every single thing I say and do. Partly becasue I'm paranoid, and partly becasue I know what can happen if you don't.

This reminds me of a story told to me by a CPR instructor.

For those that don't know, chest compressions have a high likelihood of cracking and/or breaking
some ribs, even if done correctly.

One person with an expired CPR certification gave CPR to someone and saved their lives, but
broke some of their ribs in the process. The victim sued and WON the suit.

My CPR, advanced lifesaving, and first aid certifications are all expired now, which means that
I am not protected by the Good Samaritan laws if I save someone's life using them -- even if I
put myself at risk to fish someone out of a lake or something (a lot of people get themselves into
trouble when trying to rescue panicked swimmers, because the first thing the panicked swimmer
usually attempts to do is climb on top of you... and even with training, a lot of lifeguards got
themselves into trouble because of this).

It's a truly sad state of affairs. I should not have to weigh the consequences like that when it's
plainly obvious as to what the right thing to do is.

 

[Pherdinand]

Those people did not deserve to be saved, tamerlin.

 

[tamerlin]

Those people did not deserve to be saved, tamerlin.

I agree, but how can you know that up front? Get them to sign a release form or you won't save
their life?

If there were witnesses enough, I probably wouldn't hesitate, but I'd also make sure I got some
names and numbers.

And pictures also... both for posterity and for backup. 🙂

 

[rbiemer]

I had to stop and consider for a while what my post(if any ) should be about all this.
I do like that everybody who's posted here has been civil and reasonable about their differing opinions.
But I am not sure that being reasonable in defense of my rights is the best response.
I am,unfortunately, much more paranoid about the civil liberty situation here in the US than the friends I have from elsewhere in the world.
I do have very strong opinions about HSA and the US "war on terror" but , frankly, I'm not willing to (and don't think this is the appropriate place anyway)share them here.
I am happy to debate/discuss/argue with any one about it by PM.
Rob

 

[nwcanonman]

Tamerlin,
Do you have an article or link about the CPR giver getting sued? As a former EMT and current EMS volunteer I've done CPR many times. No one I've worked with has ever heard of being sued.
"Good Samaritan" laws protect anyone that attempts, in good faith, to assist someone, not just those with CPR cards.
BTW - If your doing chest compressions deep enough to push blood through the heart you WILL break ribs/and/or cartilage. Being alive with broken ribs sure beats the alternative - death is permenent ~ ; - )

 

[nwcanonman]

Here I am, at work in 1995.
In the county I currently volunteer for I'm actually a member of Homeland Security. I'm also the team's unofficial photographer - should I turn "myself" in - LOL. 🙂

 

[bmattock]

Here I am, at work in 1995.
In the county I currently volunteer for I'm actually a member of Homeland Security. I'm also the team's unofficial photographer - should I turn "myself" in - LOL. 🙂

Yes. Then smash your camera, rough yourself up, and claim you resisted arrest.

Just kidding! Great job - rescue workers are true heroes!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[tamerlin]

Tamerlin,
Do you have an article or link about the CPR giver getting sued? As a former EMT and current EMS volunteer I've done CPR many times. No one I've worked with has ever heard of being sued.
"Good Samaritan" laws protect anyone that attempts, in good faith, to assist someone, not just those with CPR cards.

No, it was during a CPR class 15 years ago... it stuck with me because it seemed so utterly
nonsensical. Today however, and this is truly depressing, it no longer surprises me.

BTW - If your doing chest compressions deep enough to push blood through the heart you WILL break ribs/and/or cartilage. Being alive with broken ribs sure beats the alternative - death is permenent ~ ; - )

You're preaching to the choir... but until we get rid of the lawyers, that's probably not going to
hold up in a court of "law".

(No, I'm not cynical, why do you ask?)

 

[canonetc]

Photog Meet HSA

Photog Meet HSA

"Fear is the mind killer. It is the little death that leads to total obliteration"- Dune, by Frank Herbert

This thread is one of the finest examples of why RFF forum is so good. Worldwide photographers are able to write and share thoughts and images (and hopefully not misconstrue someone's writings!).

Shortly after 9-11 I got an urge to capture a bridge on film using my old Viking 6x9. I dreamed of classy contrast of white clouds against a dark sky and the momentous bridge spanning the vista on a big negative. Even brought a red filter. Ansel Adams, here I come.

Anyway, since it was cold, I wore my old Air Force jacket with multiple pockets.
So, I get to the base of the bridge, set up my camera on a tripod. and wait as the sun sets behind me, watching the glowing clouds. I happen to turn around and see a police crusier come by, slowwwww down, then continue down the road.
Uh-oh. I thought: 9-11. I'm in trouble now.

Yep, the car turned around, came over and the officers exited the vehicle. Surprisingly, they were all smiles. Was that a sign of a greeting or a beating? "Heya!" they said, "watcha doing?"

I turned slowly to face them, hands at my sides, and stepped awayyyy from the camera. "Hi officers; just out shooting a picture. Making art."

"Ah. Hmmm. Ah," they said. "Do you live in your car?" God, is it that dirty? I thought. "No sir," I said. "Mind if we inspect your vehicle." "Sure, no problem."
"would you mind opening the hood.?" "Sure, no problem".

Anyway, one asked for my license while another checked my car. Noticing I lived in the same town as they, he said, "Ah, you live around here, huh?"

Okay this story is getting too long. basically, they said, "Yeah, well, with everyting going on, it might not be such a good idea to be shooting bridges." "yeah, you're right, officer." "have a nice night."

"Thanks," was all I could say, because when they were done, the sun had set and my Ansel-Adams-hoped-for picture was no longer possible.

Since photography allows us to face and go beyond our fears, and to express creativity and have fun, it is an act more valuable than ever. Not only to we who photograph, but those who see us doing it.

HCB said "Anarchy is an ethic." Freedom from fear is what I get out of that, no politics necessary. Goodness will eventually triumph, even though it will not make the 11pm news.

Chris
canonetc

 

[bmattock]

Chris,

Thanks for a well-thought-out response. I agree that fear is the enemy.

If anything, your recollection about what the police said to you puts a chill up my spine. It seems to me that you were given a rather explicit warning: "Don't even think about exercising your civil rights. We've got a war on, buddy. We're not saying you can't take a photo here. We're saying it 'would not be smart', capische?" I think the message was pretty clear. And pretty frightening.

We all fear terrorist attack. We all would do our best to prevent one from happening if we could. I fear for a cure worse than the disease.

In the meantime, I hope and pray for a brighter happier future for all of us, and I continue to behave in a way that hopefully hurts no one and give me pleasure.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[dmr]

The thing that bothers me is that although we do have rights -- on paper at least -- when you try to assert those rights you may be asking for trouble.

"Mind if we inspect your vehicle." "Sure, no problem."
"would you mind opening the hood.?" "Sure, no problem".

And what would happen if you refused to let them inspect your car? Even if you politely said that you are respectfully denying them permission.

My guess is that all kinds of red flags would have gone off and that you may have had your car inspected one way or another whether you wanted it or not. 🙁

Oh well, there's a war on, ya know ... 🙁

 

[RubenBlaedel]

Ruben, as you mention the Angels, they are growing old!

thats nice, I would like to take over their bikes !

 

[nwcanonman]

I haven't lived near NYC since the late 1950's, but when recently asked if I'd like to visit there my answer was "NO THANKS"!
Don't get me wrong, I've worked with police/sheriff's dept as an EMS volunteer for 20 years. Like all the population there are good guys and a very few "a**holes".
I'm afraid that I would have said to the inquiring policemen, "Here's my ID and NO you may not toss my vehicle unless you have legal reason to do so". I would have later talked to their supervisor and explained my rights and if neccesary talked to a lawyer.
I've spent my life standing up for others AND myself (sometimes to my detriment), and I will always do so.
Oppression feeds on your fear. Being "at war" doesn't mean I accept being treated like "the enemy".