Photokina 2008

[Ray Nalley]

Again, there is a very limited market for a digital rangefinder. There hasn't been a significant market for rangefinders of any kind in almost 40 years. This forum represents camera users who are an anomaly (and I'm one of them, but recognize it). It doesn't matter how fancy or sophisticated you make a digital rangefinder camera. It's not what people want. To argue otherwise is to deny the obvious, in my opinion.

 

[parsec1]

Digital rangefinder.

Digital rangefinder.

Again, there is a very limited market for a digital rangefinder. There hasn't been a significant market for rangefinders of any kind in almost 40 years. This forum represents camera users who are an anomaly (and I'm one of them, but recognize it). It doesn't matter how fancy or sophisticated you make a digital rangefinder camera. It's not what people want. To argue otherwise is to deny the obvious, in my opinion.

And ofcourse the Americans never landed on the moon because so many people keep telling me so

 

[Ray Nalley]

parsec1, there are a relatively few people (of the total number of people who buy cameras) who, like me, buy and sell a lot of RF stuff. I own 15 or 16 RF's and dozens of different lenses for them. I've bought and sold dozens of RF cameras through the years. And there are people on this forum who put my buying, selling and hoarding behavior to shame. We've created a closed economy that the constant churning of old cameras has convinced some that there exists a huge pent up demand for RF's.

The idea that a lot of the camera buying public is lusting for a digital RF and would buy one if it was only affordable is illogical. They want P&S and digital SLR's or even camera phones. The RD-1 was a flop. The M8, by the sales standard of almost any other camera company, is a flop. It just seems obvious.

Sorry for the rant. Last post on the subject.

 

[drjoke]

Well Leica has a surprise. Now what about Zeiss?

 

[noimmunity]

The thing about markets is that they are not just out there with "demand" waiting to be "fulfilled". Markets are things that have to be to a large extent created. This is what marketing is all about.

 

[sojournerphoto]

Might I suggest continuing to shoot film (color reversal or B&W would be my choice) and scanning. With a good scanner (less than $2000, and please, let's not raise the 'gotta be a drum scanner' herring), you can produce a fantastically beautiful file that will put to shame anything that a 1Ds MarkIII, a 5D a D3, or D700 can put out. Seriously.

Seriously. Please can you explain what 35mm film, scanner and workflow I need to produce such a file. At the moment my colour negatove film looks different from my digital output, and is not really up to 5D/1Ds3 standard yet. I will be overjoyed to improve the print quality I get from my ZI and lenses.

Mike

 

[Zenjitsuman]

Mr. K's hobby.

Mr. K's hobby.

Mr. K. is a hobbiest first and businessman second. He is said not to like digital. Well a lot of us are being dragged into learning CS3, lightroom, B&W digital conversion, CA / Noise / color space / curves and lots of other things that are not really photography but darkroom we left to other.

Mr. K. doesn't care for digital, I feel his pain, I only want to pony up for a digital camera because its hard to get film locally, and soon demand will start really limiting choices of film, paper and developing options.

Mr. K. doesn't like digital but the lenses we buy from Cosina have to continue to have a secure future. I have 5 M lenses, and for me to continue to buy lenses I like to at least 5 years from now we are going to find them useful. To me a Bessa digital would likely make that decision easy. An M8.2 still has the M8 basic problems uncorrected and its price being double the price of top level sensor DSLR's make that not something I can afford.

Mr.K. is a hobbiest camera maker and his dislike is so sorry for us because we have nowhere where we can find a hobbiest digital rangefinder camera manufacturer to mount his hobbiest lenses.

 

[kevin m]

I defy anyone to defend the logic behind that price difference.

The logic presented, should it arrive, will be a torrent of angry words, not images. 🙄

 

[Bnack]

So this is the first time I've really been following a photokina this closely.... do any of the companies usually hold off big announcements until later in the week?

 

[parsec1]

Digital Rangfinder.

Digital Rangfinder.

parsec1, there are a relatively few people (of the total number of people who buy cameras) who, like me, buy and sell a lot of RF stuff. I own 15 or 16 RF's and dozens of different lenses for them. I've bought and sold dozens of RF cameras through the years. And there are people on this forum who put my buying, selling and hoarding behavior to shame. We've created a closed economy that the constant churning of old cameras has convinced some that there exists a huge pent up demand for RF's.

The idea that a lot of the camera buying public is lusting for a digital RF and would buy one if it was only affordable is illogical. They want P&S and digital SLR's or even camera phones. The RD-1 was a flop. The M8, by the sales standard of almost any other camera company, is a flop. It just seems obvious.

Sorry for the rant. Last post on the subject.

Been working as a pro news photographer since 1976 with pics in all UK National papers (staff on some of them) many foreign journals and carried my fair share of F2as's md 2/3s and every lens from 15mm to 600mm Then and Fm2n for the 250th flash in daylight and F3s and F4s etc etc but always carried a Leica M with a 21mm 35mm and 90mm just in case. With digital I thought the weight must be reduced but to my everlasting dissapointment the Digis got even heavier. Had my first digi Nikon in 1996 20,000$ for half a meg Kodak/AP/ Nikon hybrid. But there are still pro news photogs today in 'Fleet Street' who use M film cameras when they can including me. Taking one to Kashmir at the weekend as well as my Nikon digi's. I'm not brainwashed into believing that just because All the various slr makers don't make a digital rangefinder there is no market for a decent one. I Don't accept the assertion that the bigger the camera/ lens the more attractive you are to members of the opposite sex. We all know that 'sexiness' sells and thats what the camera manufacturos rely on along with every thing else that sold ,cars boats and planes etc. The only reason some think there is no market for a digital rangefinder is you can't stick a 20 to 300mm zoom on it and parade around your local park with it sticking out of your midrift. As I have said before 'brainwashing' ie I was out shooting with a couple of G2s one with a 21mm and a v/f dr when along comes this guy with a huge dslr and a 70-200mm 2.8 zoom sticking out of his gut and said to me and I quote "wow thats a couple of oldies you've got there". Brainwashed to the extreme !!! and he hadn't shot a pic on it for a week..he told me so.

Oh yes and an award winner in this years enviromental photographer of the year competition.
Google me Peter Davies enviromental photographer of the year competition. Pics in The Times ,Daily Telegraph and Guardian.
Love and peace

 

[cam]

I Don't accept the assertion that the bigger the camera/ lens the more attractive you are to members of the opposite sex.

for the record, rangefinders are the sexiest to the opposite sex.

whichever sex you may be 😛

 

[BillBingham2]

Well said but let's take the next step... Green DRF

Well said but let's take the next step... Green DRF

Just ask Apple... 😀

Let's look at a new commercial......

I'm a DSLR and I'm a DRF........

I think that if there is a large market for a smaller camera than those large back breakers.

Green (the big thing finally) is about using less and enjoying more. Lots of us do that. We by old cameras and use old lenses. Some times we buy a new lens or a new body, but think about the twist of buying the ultimate Green Camera. Make two bodies, one to use M bodies, the other to use S lenses.

Re-Use of existing glass on a great digital body!

Let's all go green!

B2 (;->

 

[parsec1]

Digi RFDR.

Digi RFDR.

pete,

no matter how many working photographers come on here and explain how the rf concept is still in use amongst their colleagues (even, gasp the m8!) the consensus is it's a "dead end street".
i don't understand it... i spent 14 days at a MAJOR media event the early part of the month and encountered numerous rf's including the much maligned m8. so when i read "the pro's this, the pro's that" i get awful confused?.
then i go to work and take photo's with my rf.

Hi John,
Just had a look at your site and it looks like you do very well with your Gs.. I had a couple and I loved using them. That 21mm was 'something else' What a godsend a digital G would be and I was very sorry to see them 'dissapear' of the market.
I think I and perhaps many others need both digi rgfdr for being discreet and dslrs for the news/ sports jobs but I do think the 'dead end street' is long enough to accomodate a decent digi rgfdr from somebody. Maybe even Mr K
Once again like your pictures very much
Cheers
Pete.

 

[parsec1]

Sexiest

Sexiest

for the record, rangefinders are the sexiest to the opposite sex.

whichever sex you may be 😛

Absolutley

 

[parsec1]

Green

Green

Let's look at a new commercial......

I'm a DSLR and I'm a DRF........

I think that if there is a large market for a smaller camera than those large back breakers.

Green (the big thing finally) is about using less and enjoying more. Lots of us do that. We by old cameras and use old lenses. Some times we buy a new lens or a new body, but think about the twist of buying the ultimate Green Camera. Make two bodies, one to use M bodies, the other to use S lenses.

Re-Use of existing glass on a great digital body!

Let's all go green!

B2 (;->

Sound an excellent idea.. lets do it.

 

[parsec1]

M8

M8

many thanx pete, i am honoured to recieve such a compliment from someone like yourself.

i shoot wire service now so i have moved form the g's to a m8. for the record it has been absolutely flawless and a stunning perfomer for me.
if indeed a digital g was to show, yes i know the odd's of that are nest to nothing all, i would be the first in line!
i shoot 80% of my work on an m8 and have no intention of changing my workflow any time soon!
regards
john

John
Looks like I'm going to have to flog (sell) the Mrs and buy an M8 after all.
regards
Pete

 

[paulfitz76]

What's really telling from Photokina are the photos of the different booths on dpreview. There very very few people in the Leica booth followed by mamiya, then the others all seem busy. Such a huge expense for such low traffic for Leica. I surely hope they don't go away, because we all need a benchmark.

 

[M like Leica M6]

And what's the reason for all this discussion?

After some years and Leica now showing an M8-2, Zeiss and friends have not found a way to produce anything that comes close.

In the meanwhile, Canon, Nikon and Sony dominate the world, and it is quite interesting to hear the shutter noise of a Canon EOS 5D Mark II in silent mode - less noise than my M6, I tried it yesterday. Panasonic's tiny Lumix G1 goes one step beyond RF and SLR and skips the mirror, in a few years all cameras will be like this: no mechanics at all, no noise, small, a good electronic finder, image staibilization, ultra-high ISO... so, I will be tempted buying a digital camera in the end.

 

[Ray Nalley]

I think it's more that after watching Leica struggle in a very small dRF market place, Zeiss and friends are uninterested in playing in that arena. As for Leica itself, I think many of us who've used the cameras for years just have a warm spot for them. And those with a heavy financial investment in Leica gear have an interesting vested interest in Leica's future. Which is kind of interesting in itself.

I own many thousands of dollars in Canon digital gear, but could care less if it holds it's monetary value into the future. Leica owners seem to feel otherwise.

 

[Frankie]

There is no significant market for a digital rangefinder. Leica doesn't have the R&D to create the camera you want. It's simple economics. The market for the M8 was limited. The market for the 8.2 is even smaller. Should Leica produce a less expensive dRF for M lenses, it would kill the 8.2 market. Hard to find a rose among the thorns.

Whether the market for a DRF is small or not, and whether Leica has the R&D budget or not, the decision will be made for them by the consumers...who might be smart or not. Film is a dead-ended or obso-technology. Just look at Minolta, once a proud Leica partner also.

[Obso was a term used by Lawrence Sanders in the novel The Tomorrow File. Obso film imaging will die soon enough taking Kodak with it...had Kodak not invested heavily into CCD/CMOS and endured a painful transition. Just look at Agfa, and soon Ilford.]

Digital imaging demands new thinking in camera and lens designs. The Olympus and Panasonic guys are on the right track in doing the Micro Four/Third...dare I say M43. Leica has to be well aware of the backroom thinking because of its marriage to Panasonic. The next M might well have to be an M43 😱...starts with 12 M-pixels.

[New thinking is also necessary in consumers. The old film format sizes have no real meaning other than legacy holes to be covered...if you care. Lens focal length has no real meaning either...start thinking lens coverage angles instead, expressed in landscape and portrait modes, still a universal parameter...regardless of format sizes.]

The new Panasonic Lumix G1 is a wake-up call to everyone, especially the live 1,440,000-dot fly-by-wire digital viewfinder. Yes, critics might argue it is not as fine as some ground glass...just wait until Olympus comes out with its own M43 product range. Pay close attention to their Tele-centric lens designs...no need for micro lens (Leica's touted M8 feature). Imagine that viewfinder type but mounted M8 style.

[BTW, the mock penta-prism hump in the G1 is only styling...to please the DSLR die-hard's. With the hump removed, what is the difference between a DSLR and a DRF? Imagine a Contax G2 with Lumix G1 guts 😀.]

Finally, a camera is just a camera. Take/make pictures.