Photoshop

[Photo_Smith]

My statement is exactly that: I would not make "the cloud" my only means of using software.
'
How are you doing that with the Adobe software? your assertion was that you are.

Emm...I didn't assert that "the cloud" is my only means of using software. I asserted that I wouldn't make it as my only means of using software.

Who is trying to force you to do that? You seem to be flipping your argument from the software needs the cloud to run to I wouldn't like it to be MY method.

I think really I'm going to have to give up having any reasonable discourse with you regarding what I perceive as a wholly entrenched position that shifts during engagement.

Sorry but I'll have to put you on ignore...

 

[Bill Clark]

Hi Gabriel!

Appreciate your comments.

I can remember when stitching first came out with PS, thinking it's neat & cool, a tool to use to help with large groups of people.

At our recent TCPPA meeting a gent had a camera, small in size, I believe from Sony, that did the stitching in camera.

Cameras, smart phones, tablets are all getting more sophisticated, encroaching in tasks that could, in the past, only be accomplished with a computer and the likes of a program like PS.

I find the changes in software & hardware, for that matter, have only been incremental that take place anymore.

For my people photography there are other options like Portrait Professional. An associate photographer who used to work with me bought this software and she said it can take away much of the creative process in working on images during the process stage.

In conclusion, I believe what's important during the making stage is the sum of composition, lighting, posing and rapport the photographer brings to the session that determines the outcome. I never left any of these to be determined in the process stage with the computer.

I will say though some want to look thinner, younger, less wrinkles, more tan, less tan, more gloss on the lips, take the oils off my face, thin down arms, waist and so on. I did an executive portrait a short time ago and during the session I showed him a few photos, from the back of the camera. I said to him, "I can take ten years off of your face with my computer." He thought for a moment then said, "Bill, can you make it twenty?"

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Sorry but I'll have to put you on ignore...

Alrighty then.

 

[Murchu]

What I don't understand is the angst about the cloud.
I don't think I could have written it in plainer English!

The angst about the cloud might be that the viability of your software is now directly linked to the wellbeing of the cloud. I think it's a valid concern from people, that if something happens to Adobe's cloud, and your software can no longer communicate with it, you're dead in the water.

For example, if everyone were on the cloud system now, and the Adobe servers got hit with denial of service attacks to keep the Adobe servers down long enough or persistently enough, that your software could not reach them to authenticate, the hypothetically the whole creative world could be locked out of photoshop, et al.

Cloud storage is not considered a secure way to keep data currently, so why should it be considered a secure way to obtain your software. I think this is a concern businesses and professionals are overlooking. Everything in the world can be broken, with enough pressure and the right set of circumstances, so if even google with their server farms cannot guarantee your data if something happens, why do people think Adobe's servers are anymore secure.

If someone wanted to shut off photoshop et al for the world, Adobe have just presented with a very big bulleye to aim for.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Murchu: it'll just end like this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/944589_515651055156817_1046283811_n.jpg

 

[willie_901]

The Cloud in CC

The Cloud in CC

Adobe's emphasis on the Cloud has two components.

At the moment, Cloud is a popular marketing buzzword... just as Big Data is a popular marketing term now.

More practically, Adobe's business demographic can more conveniently share work and collaborate with others. Employees can share work in different physical locations. This is done now, but users must use either in-house solutions or third-party services like DropBox.

None of this matters at all to practically all us in this Forum. What matters to us is the future of products like LR and PSE. PS users here are rightfully angry that they are forced to use a subscription model for PS only usage. PS users like us are clearly not important to Adobe.

By coincidence I happen to know something about defending against DoS attacks. First, high-impact DoS attacks are politically motivated. Adobe does not have a political footprint. Second, even dangerous DoS attacks are foiled by proven defensive techniques. There are sophisticated, and expensive, ways to limit the duration of DoS attacks. If Adobe does not have a DoS defense strategy, then sooner or later they will be badly embarrassed and their stock price will reflect their incompetence. High-level executives hate seeing the stock-option profits erode. I can't see how Adobe customers will be at risk due to DoS attacks; mostly because annual subscribers a have 99 day grace period.

The issue for us is not DoS attacks or security. And long-term PS users have been at Adobe's mercy for some time. The issue is how will Adobe treat our customer demographic in the coming years. Amateur and individual PS users are forced to eventually adopt the subscription model to keep using PS. Most of us in the Adobe ecosystem can meet our goals using LR and PSE.

Reasonable people can disagree about what Adobe might or might not do in the future. About a month ago I received an invitation from Adobe to participate in a long, detailed customer survey probing customer preferences about LR and subscription pricing. If the sentiments expressed here, and on numerous Forums elsewhere, are reflected in this survey. This doesn't mean they won't ignore our market demographic. But clearly Adobe knows what their consumer / small business customers prefer.

 

[user237428934]

For example, if everyone were on the cloud system now, and the Adobe servers got hit with denial of service attacks to keep the Adobe servers down long enough or persistently enough, that your software could not reach them to authenticate, the hypothetically the whole creative world could be locked out of photoshop, et al.

The average denial of service attack is 9 hours. There are even longer attacks but only smaller websites are affected because they don't have the means to defend themselves properly.

 

[Doug Smith]

Speaking as a freelancer, there is a huge difference between a one time capital expenditure and a recurring fixed cost. I need to keep my monthly overhead down as my cash flow is variable. So I have been very judicious about upgrading my Adobe software, often skipping versions as it didn't make economic sense at the time (or the new features weren't useful to me). Adobe seems to be assuming that everyone wants all their latest features and that this would be a prime selling point for their cloud software. This is certainly not the case for me. So being locked in to a never-ending lease arrangement just to use software that I don't necessarily have a use for is something I would never do. I'll be staying with CS6 and hope that in the future this doesn't cause compatibility problems with clients.

 

[Sparrow]

Speaking as a freelancer, there is a huge difference between a one time capital expenditure and a recurring fixed cost. I need to keep my monthly overhead down as my cash flow is variable. So I have been very judicious about upgrading my Adobe software, often skipping versions as it didn't make economic sense at the time (or the new features weren't useful to me). Adobe seems to be assuming that everyone wants all their latest features and that this would be a prime selling point for their cloud software. This is certainly not the case for me. So being locked in to a never-ending lease arrangement just to use software that I don't necessarily have a use for is something I would never do. I'll be staying with CS6 and hope that in the future this doesn't cause compatibility problems with clients.

... that is what I've been trying to explain, one can amortise the former whereas the latter is subject to alteration increase at the providers whim

 

[Murchu]

The average denial of service attack is 9 hours. There are even longer attacks but only smaller websites are affected because they don't have the means to defend themselves properly.

I think you missed my point, which was not that it will happen, but that it *can* happen.

Its all fine knowing about past history of these things, but for example, if a dedicated group of hackers decided to declare war on Adobe, for whatever reason, I think it would be squeaky bum time for a lot of Adobe cloud customers, especially those that relied on it for their commercial concerns. Security is all well and good, but there is no such thing as 100% security, and at the end of the day these things come down to how much a company is comfortable investing in security vs. the determination, skill and numbers of those who want to break it.

In any case, this is just a peripheral point for me, this whole move by Adobe stinks for me, as it does for many others, given the firestorm on the web about this.

 

[robert blu]

My relationship with Adobe is...love and hate! I am an amateur and I have a license for PS CS3 (when a lot of people where I live go the pirate way). My idea was that having an official license I could benefit of support from them. I had a problem, license no more valid (?) times ago and tried to contact via mail the customer service of Adobe, supplying invoice number, serial number, purchase dates they even did not bother to answer. At the end I manage after many call phones to speak with somebody and his answer was somehow freezing for me: "sorry sir, we do not support anymore CS3. We only support now from CS4." Ok, I spent many hours through many user forum and solved my problem. Why I'm telling you this story? Because I think Adobe management is only interested in numbers, market share etc. The individual user are not such important. I guess they believe (and probably are right) in this way to overcome the problem of pirated copies. This will cost them the loss of a few (or many?) clients, but probably the benefit will be anyway higher, just my idea. Anyway last december they e mailed me that I could upgrade my CS3 to CS6 before dec 31st, later this had been no more possible. I did it following the suggestion of my computer dealer and I think for a few years it will be ok for me. No need of subscription. And LR is getting always better for PP, just my ideas.
robert

 

[robert blu]

"my computer (apple) dealer told me I made a good choice upgrading to CS6 because it is the last version sold without subscription. I have no way to know if this is a statement or a supposition."

For sure there are on the market other valid alternatives. We'll see what will happen.
robert

 

[willie_901]

The average denial of service attack is 9 hours. There are even longer attacks but only smaller websites are affected because they don't have the means to defend themselves properly.

I know of agreesive, massive DoS attacks that were thwarted in under an hour. The average is means nothing. What matters is the level of investment in resources and planning before the attack.

The risk of a catastrophe at Adobe that would shut down all CC authentication access for longer than 99 day is not zero. A meteor could smash the Adobe campus to bits (I am not being sarcastic). A disgruntled Adobe employee or ex-employee could sabatoge the main authetication servers and all the back-up (off-line) server sites.

Low probability events happen. Every so often somebody wins the Powerball lottery even though the odds at about 130 million to one they won't. So if that level of risk bothers you, then use a solution with a risk profile you can accept.

 

[Bob Michaels]

How many realize that Photoshop CC will NOT be a cloud based system. All of the software and all the data remains on the users system. It will function perfectly well in an off line mode. Only the payment and payment verification is subscription based rather than a one time payment. Don't want to log on to Adobe to verify your subscription is valid? Then simply make an annual payment and it appears no log on is necessary for a year unless one wants updates. (sound familiar?)

It is true the payment model has changed but use has not.

Adobe will continue to sell and support CS6 at a one time purchase price.

Let me suggest people log on to Adobe.com and read what Adobe says about how this will work rather than relying on what other ill informed people are saying on the internet.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

How many realize that Photoshop CC will NOT be a cloud based system. All of the software and all the data remains on the users system. It will function perfectly well in an off line mode.

Scenario: I have a monthly-based subscription, I have Adobe Photoshop CC installed and authenticated. I go to the desert two days before the anniversary of the next monthly payment, and I will be there for three months, and access to any sort of telecommunication will happen only once in a while. The software has not been able to phone home to check that the subscription is valid, and it decides to deny access until you validate.

This is not about a "fear" that the software will run on a "cloud". This is a logistical issue which is very feasible, and is a huge failure point. "Oh, Adobe will not let the software do that." Sure, if they're worried about software piracy they sure will make sure you have coughed up the money and not give a long grace period from authenticating your subscription past the due date.

Only the payment and payment verification is subscription based rather than a one time payment. Don't want to log on to Adobe to verify your subscription is valid? Then simply make an annual payment and it appears no log on is necessary for a year unless one wants updates. (sound familiar?)

Yes, sounds familiar, and this is not a model that many individual users can follow. If you're a corporation, have lots of money resources, etc., sure, this option is very feasible. But not everybody can (nor will want to) do it.

It is true the payment model has changed but use has not.

True. Lot of extra context and but(s) left out in that assertion, though, which has been (pointlessly) been addressed earlier in this thread.

Adobe will continue to sell and support CS6 at a one time purchase price.

Yes, for now. For how much longer, though?

Let me suggest people log on to Adobe.com and read what Adobe says about how this will work rather than relying on what other ill informed people are saying on the internet.

Excellent idea. And I'd suggest further Googling other technical terms and concepts, but that'd just be painful. Let's instead illustrate with:

http://community.phonegap.com/nitobi/topics/_service_adobe_authentication_systems_are_offline

And

https://www.google.com/search?num=4...1813.25j1.26.0...0.0...1c.1.12.hp.bhtTmeA3Wkk

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

My relationship with Adobe is...love and hate! I am an amateur and I have a license for PS CS3 (when a lot of people where I live go the pirate way). My idea was that having an official license I could benefit of support from them. I had a problem, license no more valid (?) times ago and tried to contact via mail the customer service of Adobe, supplying invoice number, serial number, purchase dates they even did not bother to answer. At the end I manage after many call phones to speak with somebody and his answer was somehow freezing for me: "sorry sir, we do not support anymore CS3. We only support now from CS4." Ok, I spent many hours through many user forum and solved my problem. Why I'm telling you this story? Because I think Adobe management is only interested in numbers, market share etc. The individual user are not such important. I guess they believe (and probably are right) in this way to overcome the problem of pirated copies. This will cost them the loss of a few (or many?) clients, but probably the benefit will be anyway higher, just my idea. Anyway last december they e mailed me that I could upgrade my CS3 to CS6 before dec 31st, later this had been no more possible. I did it following the suggestion of my computer dealer and I think for a few years it will be ok for me. No need of subscription. And LR is getting always better for PP, just my ideas.
robert

This is one illustration of why moving further into this model (where you rely on communicating via Internet or through Customer "service" to unlock your right --acquired at purchase-- to use it) without the possibility of physically owning the media to install at will is a Very Bad Idea.

But, again, people who have never dealt with these real-life situations will just roll your eyes at you.

- I can't go out of town right now, my car's down.
- Why, why don't you just buy a limo. We do it all the time.
- You're a stock broker, I'm just a poor college student.
- Nonsense, just get a plane ticket.
- I don't have any money.
- Well, aren't you a whiner. You're not open to solutions.
- I could ask for a ride.
- First you say you hate limos, then planes, and now you want a handout. Why don't you get a job?
- I'm in college...

Etc. etc.

 

[Bob Michaels]

Scenario: I have a monthly-based subscription, I have Adobe Photoshop CC installed and authenticated. I go to the desert two days before the anniversary of the next monthly payment, and I will be there for three months, and access to any sort of telecommunication will happen only once in a while. The software has not been able to phone home to check that the subscription is valid, and it decides to deny access until you validate.

This is not about a "fear" that the software will run on a "cloud". This is a logistical issue which is very feasible, and is a huge failure point. "Oh, Adobe will not let the software do that." Sure, if they're worried about software piracy they sure will make sure you have coughed up the money and not give a long grace period from authenticating your subscription past the due date.

OK, simply prepay the 3 months you are in the desert. This is what I do for hosting of my website.

Yes, for now. For how much longer, though?

You buy CS6 and it runs in perpetuity. Or, any other version you bought.

Excellent idea. And I'd suggest further Googling other technical terms and concepts, but that'd just be painful. Let's instead illustrate with:

http://community.phonegap.com/nitobi/topics/_service_adobe_authentication_systems_are_offline

OK, read on and you will find the Adobe verification system was down for 45 minutes. This would make a difference if you installed the software and waited 29 days, 23 hours and 15 minutes to register it. Then you would not be able to use it for 45 minutes.

I think I read (but am going from memory) that actually Adobe is allowing 60 days grace for non payment before your software becomes non-functional.

Again, if Photoshop CC terms are a problem for you, just buy CS6 or continue to use what version you have.

 

[user237428934]

Just curious: Why are you so "invested" in cloud use? Do you work in this field?

I'm a software architect in a large enterprise. We are not using cloud services from outside the company-network but our data-center provides infrastructure cloud services that our business applications use. And I know a few things about the big cloud providers like Amazon (yes, they are not only selling tangible stuff). But I'm no real expert in this field 🙄

I hope this answers your question because I don't have a clue, what you meant exactly with invested.

 

[sepiareverb]

It is still not clear what Adobe's future plans are, they are still selling CS6 and there is no reason to assume they will not sell CS7 at this time.

I wish they would be more open about their plans.

They are pretty clear. From the Creative Cloud Letter (emphasis mine)

We believe that Creative Cloud will have a larger impact on the creative world than anything else we’ve done over the past three decades. It is our single highest priority to enable deep integration between our tools and services. One of the implications of this is that many of the new features in our CC applications require access to Creative Cloud, as will many of the updates we are planning for the future.

In order to accelerate the rate at which we deliver new features and services, and to ensure that we do so with the highest level of quality, we are focusing all of our efforts on Creative Cloud.

Given this, the CC applications will be available only as part of Creative Cloud. We will continue to sell and support Adobe Creative Suite® 6 applications, and will provide bug fixes and security updates as necessary. We do not, however, have any current plans to release new versions of our CS applications.

You will continue to install and use the creative applications on your desktop just as you always have, but the apps will increasingly be part of a larger creative process centered on Creative Cloud.

This seems to point toward needing to be connected. But what do I know.

You buy CS6 and it runs in perpetuity. Or, any other version you bought.

Not necessarily. I have purchased plenty of software over the years which cannot run on this latest laptop. The Sigma Merrill Raw convertor, which is free but required for shooting RAW with the DP2M will not run on an i7 processor.

Bug fixes and security updates are not an update to run CS6 in a new OS or on a new processor.

Perhaps stocking up on a couple extra computers at the same time will get us through the next ten years on CS6...

 

[Ronald M]

I will be looking else where.

When they could not get get people to subscribe to cloud, they did the next best thing, cloud only.

I have NX2 for the Nikons and Leica DNG will eventually need a home too.

We be over a barrel so to speak as new cameras will no longer work in ACR, so I upgraded several times. PS is capable of bending and twisting images into unrecognizable forms. I want to do little more than I could do in my darkroom .