Picture Of The Tri-elmar 16/18/21

jaapv said:
because the distance film-lens is much smaller on a RF. BTW I still say: why no goggles??

Jaapv

But that makes it easier to design a compact, fast wide lens. Again, I ask, if Olympus could design a 21mm F2.0 for an SLR that met the requirements for compactness, even though it necessarily had to by of retrofocus design, why can't anyone design a similar lens in an M mount?

Rex
 
rvaubel said:
Jaapv

But that makes it easier to design a compact, fast wide lens. Again, I ask, if Olympus could design a 21mm F2.0 for an SLR that met the requirements for compactness, even though it necessarily had to by of retrofocus design, why can't anyone design a similar lens in an M mount?

Rex

I don't think so; the angle of incidence makes it all far more complicated, that, and the size restriction by the viewfinder. Did you ever see the distortion on that Olympus? Don't get me wrong, it was excellent in its day, though not cheap, but it can't hold up with current Zeiss and Leica lenses.
 
Last edited:
jaapv said:
Most modern RF wide-angles ARE retrofocus.
I guessed as much about my 15/4.5...
but then, why is it that we can't get a retrofocus 21/2 nowadays ? (some shooting styles tolerate distortion - otherwise zooms wouldn't sell)
 
jaapv said:
I don't think so; the angle of incidence makes it all far more complicated, that, and the size restriction by the viewfinder. Did you ever see the distortion on that Olympus? Don't get me wrong, it was excellent in its day, though not cheap, but it can't hold up with current Zeiss and Leica lenses.

jaapv

Unfortunately I never have had an opportunity to see the Olympus. I wish I had. In fact if anyone has one for sale, and if anyone knows whether or not an adapter is made for the M mount, I have $$ in my pocket.

As to your point about distortion, I don't doubt that their would be problems. As we all know, the symmetrical design possible with a rangefinder camera makes dostortion a lot easier to control. The retrofocus design has problems with distortion but the angle of incidence problem is relieved. Most modern rangefinder wides are a little of both. Thats why the new Leica and Zeiss designs are not as compact as the older ones, i.e. the rear elements are not hugging the focus plain like before.

As for me, I would take more distortion for a faster lens. That is for my street photography, people stuff, etc. For architecheal uses and other uses where distortion is a concern, I would pick a slower lens (and a tripod)

I quess I just can't get out of my head that a lens 21mm or shorter with a F2.0 or faster, is possible. If this isn't true then the argument about full frame comes back into play. And I thought I had put that puppy to bed.

Please say it isn't so😱

Rex
 
jaapv said:
Most modern RF wide-angles ARE retrofocus.

Not most, but several, mainly the new Zeiss Ikon M lenses. Btw this might be a hint that Zeiss is planning a digital rangefinder.

The Cosina Voigtlander 15, 21, 25, 28 (3.5) and 35 (2.5) are not retrofocal. Don't know about the 12, 28/1.9, 35/1.2, 35 1.7.

Didier
 
Didier said:
Not most, but several, mainly the new Zeiss Ikon M lenses. Btw this might be a hint that Zeiss is planning a digital rangefinder.

The Cosina Voigtlander 15, 21, 25, 28 (3.5) and 35 (2.5) are not retrofocal. Don't know about the 12, 28/1.9, 35/1.2, 35 1.7.

Didier

Non retrofocus wide angle lens are truly wonderful, but unavoidable slow. Plus they have their rear element very close to the focal plane, necessitating high incident angles which lead to vignetting problems, especially with digital sensors.

The modern Zeiss and Leica designs are on the right path for a digital friendly design. But I still wonder no one picks up on Olympus's playbook, as they seemed to have most of the design problems licked.

Rex
 
rvaubel said:
As to your point about distortion, I don't doubt that their would be problems. As we all know, the symmetrical design possible with a rangefinder camera makes dostortion a lot easier to control. The retrofocus design has problems with distortion but the angle of incidence problem is relieved. Most modern rangefinder wides are a little of both. Thats why the new Leica and Zeiss designs are not as compact as the older ones, i.e. the rear elements are not hugging the focus plain like before.

I quess I just can't get out of my head that a lens 21mm or shorter with a F2.0 or faster, is possible. If this isn't true then the argument about full frame comes back into play. And I thought I had put that puppy to bed.



Rex
A visual game to help with the sensor fall off idea: Take a half cup of coffee and sit close to the edge of a table where you can look down into it seeing the full circle surface of the coffee. Now push the cup away from you and watch the coffee and the shape of the cup rim. The coffee disappears and the rim distorts to an elipse. That is the symmetrical version, To get the retro focus version stand up and repeat. The coffee surface that you can see is the target that the photons have to hit. When the surface area that you can see reduces to one half, you have lost an f/stop and so forth.
Off set microlenses can help, but when they get radical to cope with wide angle lenses, they get reverse-radical for teles. I suppose that we could end up with a wide angle and a tele sensored M bodies, like we have the 0.58 and 0.85 viewfinders.
Producing fast wide angle lenses generally means the front element gets big. This isn't a problem with an aux viewfinder, but the retro focus design wont be small either.
We'll have to see how well Leica did with this knotty problem and what the focal length spread will be in real life shooting.
Bob
 
rvaubel said:
Yep, that's me too. Although that does leave me a little F stop challanged at the wide end. I would consider spending big bucks on a 17mm F2.8 or better yet F2.0.
The gap that needs to be filled is the 1.3x equivelent of the 21mm F2.8.
Why? Actually if you do need something with more or less equivalent angle of field, there already is a way in most cases even without the Tri-Elmar. In this case, for a 21mm-or-so equivalent lens, use the Zeiss 15/f2.8; for a 24mm-or-so equivalent lens use the Canon 19/f3.5; and for 25 to 28mm you can use any 21mm lens or if you want it a little shorter get a 20mm lens, such as the excellent CZJ MC Flektogon 20/f2.8 in M42 (not rangefinder coupled, but then it doesn't have to be at 20mm). With most of these you'll lose at most half a stop in speed. Shorter than 20mm-equivalent is where it gets tough, though.

Philipp
 
Last edited:
The main reason for retrofocus design in RF wideangle lenses is that it offers better control of aberrations. The symmetrical design had approached the theoretical limts of correction, one of the reasons the Elmarit 21 was not renewed for so many years. I am sure that Zeiss and Leica could design a 2.0 21 within the size-limits imposed by the body design of their rangefinders on paper, however I doubt that the tolerances of the mechanical part of the lenses, which is magnitidudes more critical in rangefinder lenses than in SLR lenses for various reasons,plus the shaping of the glass could be realised for an acceptable price, even by Leica/Zeiss standards.
Ironically, the design of a high-speed 21 on a 35 mm sensor could be far more difficult than a 16 or 18 of the same speed on a 1.33 sensor, due to edge and corner problems, that increase exponentially with both sensor size and lens speed. As a comparison: The Summarit was designed as a 1.5 because that was the limit of possibilities at the time, and 1.4 was totally impossible. Such a small difference!
On a more optimistic note: If we consider the advances in lens design and manufacture over the last, say, 15 years which are not far short of miraculous, especially with Leica, Zeiss and to a certain extent CV, it may well be that high-speed short lenses will appear in the not too far future. Certainly the advent of digital, smaller sensor rangefinders will speed up this development.
 
Last edited:
Didier said:
Not most, but several, mainly the new Zeiss Ikon M lenses. Btw this might be a hint that Zeiss is planning a digital rangefinder.

The Cosina Voigtlander 15, 21, 25, 28 (3.5) and 35 (2.5) are not retrofocal. Don't know about the 12, 28/1.9, 35/1.2, 35 1.7.

Didier
I don't know too much about CV, but I would imagine that the price restrictions they set themselves in the laudable quest for high quality for a reasonable price would limit them to less advanced designs. Most newly developed wide-angles by Leica and Zeiss have moved away from the time-honored double-gauss design.
 
jaapv said:
I don't know too much about CV, but I would imagine that the price restrictions they set themselves in the laudable quest for high quality for a reasonable price would limit them to less advanced designs. Most newly developed wide-angles by Leica and Zeiss have moved away from the time-honored double-gauss design.

jaapv

Yes, its true that Cosina has opted to stay with the traditional rangefinder designs with regards the sub 28mm catagory. But from 28mm and up, they have shown a willingness to pull out all the design stops. Witness the 28mm f1.9, a truly great and affordable lens. As another example, I have the 40mm f1;4 Nokton, which simply amazes me with its small size, excellent quality and very reasonable cost . the other examples from the Cosina line alone is considerable.

I wish that Cosina would enlist there considerable design skills in persuing a fast, wide. There success in the longer focal lengths can certainly not be denied.

Rex
 
Mark Norton said:
It's certainly very striking to look at a 35mm Summilux and a 28mm Summicron and see the concave front lens elements.

The Voigtlander 28mm f3.5 and, I think the 35mm f1.7, also have concave front elements. So Voigtlander designs can also be modern and inovative.
 
Back
Top Bottom