nzeeman
Well-known
they made cuts on all technology... electrical parts they have inside would cost 200$ at best per unit - probably even cheaper because they are super dated... so you tell me that mechanical rf costs a thousand to develop?
Pixii PORN
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they made cuts on all technology... electrical parts they have inside would cost 200$ at best per unit - probably even cheaper because they are super dated... so you tell me that mechanical rf costs a thousand to develop?
shawn
Veteran
I'm curious where you get that $200 number from?
This might be the sensor in the PIXII.
https://ams.com/cmv12000
In single units that cost $1590.06.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ams/CMV12000-2E5M1PA?qs=wlO1EFRhkBBhvzYn7XTRzQ==
Obviously buying in larger quantities will give better pricing. They are a small manufacturer and don't have the economies of scale of pretty much anyone else. I highly doubt they are under $200 for all the electronics.
If that is the sensor in the PIXII that company also has a FF 20mp version. That is around $3600 for a sensor.
https://octopart.com/cmv20000-1e5c1pa-ams-75484563
Shawn
valdas
Veteran
Direct cost of production are not the only cost when one looks at the bottom line. All the overheads and initial R&D cost that hit the depreciation line... plus they need to make some profit 🙂
Disappointed_Horse
Well-known
Thinking about pricing of the PIXII a little more, didn't the Epson RD1 sell for about $2,500 new in the 2005–2009 time frame? The 6MP sensor in the RD1 was also pretty dated by the time that camera came out. (Not that I'm badmouthing it, I still use and enjoy a camera with a similar 6MP CCD sensor to this day.)
Adjuster for inflation, pricing of the PIXII is probable pretty close to what the RD1 sold for when new.
Adjuster for inflation, pricing of the PIXII is probable pretty close to what the RD1 sold for when new.
I would think a mechanical rangefinder is very expensive. Also while the sensor seems outdated it does have a global shutter and that can’t be cheap either. So, $200? Come on.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
- They didn't "make cuts" because they were designing from scratch.
- The coupled, optical-mechanical viewfinder in a Leica M is one of the MOST expensive components of the camera in manufacture. And Stephen suggests this viewfinder is being built to similar quality standards. It doesn't cost "thousands" to develop it, it costs probably HUNDREDS of thousands to develop such a viewfinder and the manufacturing process for it. On a per unit basis, it has to be a few hundred dollars COM apiece.
- I suspect they CHOSE this particular sensor to meet their engineering requirements. BTW: the cost of the imaging sensor in the first Canon Rebel digital SLR was THE most expensive component in the camera ... It raised the price of the camera from $300 to $1000 MSRP. And that's the price rise for an established manufacturer with a full development organization, manufacturing line, etc etc, all in place planning a high-volume product.
- Yes, you can make very nice photographs with a 12 Mpixel sensor. I sold a great deal of very nice photographs with 4, 5, 6, and 10 Mpixel sensors
The general cost of manufacture nets about a 300% average markup to MSRP if a manufacturer is going to be profitable. Taking the Pixii's price at about US$3300, that means the camera most likely has a COM around $1100 per unit.
If you think you can build and manufacture a camera like the Pixii and sell it profitably at a price lower than $3000, go ahead and do it.
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Your color examples look very nice, Stephen! Any chance that you can share a couple of the raw files? 😉
G
G
Emile de Leon
Well-known
I think as an estimate cost from manufacturer... to wholesale..to retail..is about 10x's.
Someone told me that back in the day..
It could be more..it could be less..dont really know..
But $350 sounds about right for this..in order to survive..
These wont sell like hotcakes..it has to be a real profit there..
But I dont see this sellin very well at that price..
And if it cost them 1K to make..or even more..well..
Someone told me that back in the day..
It could be more..it could be less..dont really know..
But $350 sounds about right for this..in order to survive..
These wont sell like hotcakes..it has to be a real profit there..
But I dont see this sellin very well at that price..
And if it cost them 1K to make..or even more..well..
yep, typo
Disappointed_Horse
Well-known
Speaking of manufacturing costs, I was curious as to whether the Pixii is actually manufactured in France or outsourced. I scanned over their website briefly but didn't find anything that said one way or the other.
Anyone know?
Anyone know?
Huss
Veteran
1500 px pics that look like I took them with my iPhone 4s?
What happened to the RAW file you were going to link to? Or just one full size image?
What happened to the RAW file you were going to link to? Or just one full size image?
Huss
Veteran
In the 1970s-80s the Japanese manufacturers were pumping out cheap mechanical rf cameras.
Come to think of it, the Russians were doing that for decades too! With Zorkis, Feds etc.
So, how expensive is it really to make a mechanical RF? It's been done for decades super cheap. It's only Leica and such that are at the top price point.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I'm not sure about 10x, Emile, and certainly not for low volume, niche production goods. Perhaps 4x-5x is a better estimate, my gut feeling is 3x is about right for a first product of this type from a new company ... but the point is that NO ONE can sell this camera profitably for anywhere near what people here are asking for given the audience it can command. It simply cannot be a $1000 camera without it being a piece of junk, and we have it on the word of our fearless bartender (and the photos he's made with it) that it is NOT a piece of junk.
🙂
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Huss
Veteran
I never said I can do it, I'm not a camera mfg.
But camera mfgs have done it, as can be clearly seen.
Zorki, Fed, Minolta, Olympus, Canon, Konica, Agfa etc etc for very little money.
So, if you think it is thousands of dollars to make a mechanical rf, perhaps you should check out a Fed 2. Or Olympus RC. Or Konica 35. Or Zorki 4.
All the engineering and design has already been done by others years ago. They are not re-inventing the wheel. Actually the only one that has done that is Fuji with it's awesome hybrid VF, but that is not a real RF.
I have no issue with Pixii costing $3000 as long as the images back up the price. Looking at that 1500px pic of the Mercedes, that looks like an awfully noisy steering wheel and dash. But I can't tell for sure because a full size image has not been posted.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
I've been in retail a long time..
I dont think they can make it on that..
But if they eliminate the middleman..or just give them 10%..15%..maybe..
shawn
Veteran
The Japanese manufacturers were pumping out cheap mechanical fixed lens cameras. And really, they weren't that cheap. A Konica S3 listed at $199 in 1973, that is $1161 in todays money.
Not sure the USSR cameras are comparable as I really don't know how those companies operated. Was profit a consideration?
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
Either way you slice it, this new camera produces some very nice photos.
It is not everyday we get a new digital camera with an optical RF system, kudos to PIXII.
It is not everyday we get a new digital camera with an optical RF system, kudos to PIXII.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Fuji has made rangefinders for decades..not cheep..but not Leica expensive..
I've often wondered why they didnt jump on the true rangefinder digital band wagon..
Maybe they own stock in Leica..or the reverse..
I've often wondered why they didnt jump on the true rangefinder digital band wagon..
Maybe they own stock in Leica..or the reverse..
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