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Erik van Straten said:
Freakscene: "I was the first of the modern asphericals (the 50/1.2 Noctilux was obviously Leica's first camera lens with aspherical elements) but it was also the first of their lenses to be designed with very rapid focus fall off."

I did not know that you are a modern aspherical!
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It was not I was . . . sorry . . . typographical error . . . but I am definitely aspherical ha ha.

Erik van Straten said:
I've never heard of lenses "designed with very rapid focus fall off", but I can understand that lenses with a high contrast have less dept of field than lenses with a low contrast. Is that what you mean?
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No, I don’t mean that. Modern lens design can be used to control spherical aberration such that it is controlled unequally through the focus distance range. This can affect the rapidity with which focus falls off outside the depth-of-field and softens the bokeh. The 35mm Summilux aspherical (11873) with 2 hand ground aspherical elements (1991) was the first Leica lens designed using this approach.

Erik van Straten said:
Aspherical lenses usually have more contrast than normal ones.
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That depends entirely on design choices. Lenses follow what manufacturers think we want or, as I see it, we are ‘supposed’ to want. Since the 1950s this has generally been more contrast and more resolution. Following widespread uptake of mirrorless digital cameras this trend has gone crazy, and the current fast primes are extremely contrasty, have very high resolving power and, as a side effect, are huge.

Given current design, manufacturing capacities and ISO ability of digital cameras, a range of f2.8 or 4 lenses with ultra high correction, matched for colour transmission, contrast and very compact size makes a lot of sense, but I can already hear the cries of ‘but they are so slow’.
 
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Slumgullion said:
Having lower SA and higher contrast/resolving power creates the impression of faster focus fall off. There is a plane of clear focus and then things drop off quickly. I would argue that Leica (and all other lens manufacturers) had become more aware of out-of-focus rendering as a concept to 'focus' on (pardon the pun) when they introduced new lenses. When the 11874 came out in 1994 it miles apart from pre-aspherical 35 Lux. Hence, why so many of the newest/latest/greatest lenses are probably too smooth in their fall-off and too sharp at the point of focus.

At any rate, the two hardest to focus lenses I have are the 35 Lux 11874 and the Voigtlander 50mm APO-Lanthar. Which makes sense. Both are sharp. Both are contrasty (though the APO-Lanthar highlights the technological growth made in the intervening 20 years). Here are two whatever, utterly unscientific images that might/might not show the similarities and differences in their rendering (both shot wide-open):

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Zeiss Ikon ZM, Voigtlander 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar VM, Ilford HP5+, Xtol 1:1.

Fischer, on Flickr
Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Leica M7, Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux-ASPH 11874, Flic Film Aurora 400.
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HP5+ always looks so good through these highly technically correct lenses. Thanks for sharing.
 
On this topic, the sharpest/most modern fast 35 that I can use on film is the Sigm 35mm f/1.4.

Here is good article on its design:
lensreview.xyz

【光学エンジニアの解説】 シグマ大口径広角レンズ SIGMA 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art -分析006

SIGMA Art レンズシリーズ第一弾、大口径広角単焦点35ｍｍ F1.4を特許情報と実写による作例から分析します。
lensreview.xyz lensreview.xyz

I had to use the Sigma dock to get it calibrated to my F6, but it was worth it. Yes it is big, but the optical quality is quite striking...especially on film. The sharpness and fall-off are (probably) unmatched in any other lens you can use on a film Nikon (the Nikon 35mm f/1.4G is not quite as sharp).

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak T-Max 400, Xtol 1:1.

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Portra 400.

Dad by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Tri-X, Rodinal 1:50
 
Freakscene said:
It was not I was . . . sorry . . . typographical error . . . but I am definitely aspherical ha ha.



No, I don’t mean that. Modern lens design can be used to control spherical aberration such that it is controlled unequally through the focus distance range. This can affect the rapidity with which focus falls off outside the depth-of-field and softens the bokeh. The 35mm Summilux aspherical (11873) with 2 hand ground aspherical elements (1991) was the first Leica lens designed using this approach.



That depends entirely on design choices. Lenses follow what manufacturers think we want or, as I see it, we are ‘supposed’ to want. Since the 1950s this has generally been more contrast and more resolution. Following widespread uptake of mirrorless digital cameras this trend has gone crazy, and the current fast primes are extremely contrasty, have very high resolving power and, as a side effect, are huge.

Given current design, manufacturing capacities and ISO ability of digital cameras, a range of f2.8 or 4 lenses with ultra high correction, matched for colour transmission, contrast and very compact size makes a lot of sense, but I can already hear the cries of ‘but they are so slow’.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this clear argument. I'll study the subject.
 
Slumgullion said:
On this topic, the sharpest/most modern fast 35 that I can use on film is the Sigm 35mm f/1.4.

Here is good article on its design:
lensreview.xyz

【光学エンジニアの解説】 シグマ大口径広角レンズ SIGMA 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art -分析006

SIGMA Art レンズシリーズ第一弾、大口径広角単焦点35ｍｍ F1.4を特許情報と実写による作例から分析します。
lensreview.xyz lensreview.xyz

I had to use the Sigma dock to get it calibrated to my F6, but it was worth it. Yes it is big, but the optical quality is quite striking...especially on film. The sharpness and fall-off are (probably) unmatched in any other lens you can use on a film Nikon (the Nikon 35mm f/1.4G is not quite as sharp).

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak T-Max 400, Xtol 1:1.

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Portra 400.

Dad by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Tri-X, Rodinal 1:50
Click to expand...
Very nice pictures! Are they scans or prints? Are the B+W pics made on color-negative film?
 
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Slumgullion said:
On this topic, the sharpest/most modern fast 35 that I can use on film is the Sigm 35mm f/1.4.

Here is good article on its design:
lensreview.xyz

【光学エンジニアの解説】 シグマ大口径広角レンズ SIGMA 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art -分析006

SIGMA Art レンズシリーズ第一弾、大口径広角単焦点35ｍｍ F1.4を特許情報と実写による作例から分析します。
lensreview.xyz lensreview.xyz

I had to use the Sigma dock to get it calibrated to my F6, but it was worth it. Yes it is big, but the optical quality is quite striking...especially on film. The sharpness and fall-off are (probably) unmatched in any other lens you can use on a film Nikon (the Nikon 35mm f/1.4G is not quite as sharp).

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak T-Max 400, Xtol 1:1.

Jenny by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Portra 400.

Dad by Jim Fischer, on Flickr
Nikon F6, Sigma 35mm f/1.4, Kodak Tri-X, Rodinal 1:50
Click to expand...

These look very modern. It’s interesting, isn’t it? It is also a real paradox that as lens design gets better that fewer and fewer are usable with film.

The sharpest lens I have that I can use with film is a Zeiss Milvus, and it is plenty sharp enough.
 
Slumgullion said:
Oh, he was a notable photographer and cinematographer who shot some wonderful movies (many of them are truly iconic, in my opinion). He would've been older than you. Sadly, he passed in 2018.
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Robby Muller was quite famous in the movie field for minimum artificial lighting in his style...working w Wim Winders, Jarmusch, Friedkin and Bogdanovich ( Saint Jack ),

i like very much 'To live and Die in L A' ( dir William Friedkin ), 'Until the end of the World' ( dir Wenders...i still have the sound track CD), and Jim Jarmusch's 'Mystery Train',

part of the story is one young couple from Yokohama, Japan took a train to Memphis for homage to Elvis...

'Mystery Train'
 
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Taipei-metro said:
PS,
for RFF Black and White film lovers, Muller was the DP of 'Dead Man' (1995), film directed by Jim Jarmusch,

( i saw this one a while back and also got the sound track CD, bcs the music is by Neil Young)

'Dead Man' in black and white film;
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I have not seen this!

I love Robby's work in "Breaking the Waves" and his creative video usage in "Dancer in the Dark "

But, I'm with you, I REALLY love "To Live and Die in LA." To take this arthouse film cinematographer and throw him in a biggish budget 'cops n robbers' flick is such an audacious choice...and it works.

Also, "Paris, Texas" is beautiful.
 
now my film image... before my another OT,

in an Aboriginal village,
( audience of an Aboriginal Talent show)

Taitung County, southern Taiwan

Photo by Taipei-metro

Canon EOS AF 10S,
Sigma EF 28-105 fullframe Japan
Sunpak n-TTL Speedlight fired
Fuji XTra 400 printfilm
 
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