Print big - what is your solution

ChrisN said:
Also, check this thread on Large Format Forum - http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?115810-Printing-Murals. There's plenty of experience over there with printing large.
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Thanks, I just read through this thread and it was most interesting!
A person there says exactly what I was looking for, there's no need for fancy equipment and a lot of space just a good lens and a laser sort of alignment to make sure the negative / lens / easel are all flat to one another.

He says that he rolls the paper which is what I also had in mind.
The thing I don't understand about rolling is the fact that how will the developer penetrate the print's areas that are touching? How is this rolling done? Just take the print and roll it up or there needs to be spacers installed somehow to keep the layers apart?

Thanks,
Ben
 
Tube developing works ok with RC paper, but if you are printing on fiber you risk kinks, dents etc. The best solution, if you're going to get serious about making really large prints, it to make, or have fabricated for you, trays of PVC. This is not cheap, but much cheaper than it sounds. Plastic supply places sell the material in sheets, and it can be chemically welded. The sheets come really big. All my darkroom sinks are made like this. I caulked them with silicone for extra insurance.
 
Thank you all once again for the great tips!

My only remaining question is how to roll the paper? Just roll it up like it was any sort of paper or I need to be careful with emulsion being inside / outside or having some spacers in so the paper wouldn't touch etc?

Thanks,
Ben
 
bence8810 said:
My only remaining question is how to roll the paper?
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I don't make very large prints, but I do make panoramic prints that are longer than the trays. So I do roll them as well.

In order to avoid damaging the emulsion you should roll them with the emulsion to the inside. No 'spacers' required, the paper base holds enough developer to continue development of the emulsion area touching it. And don't make the diameter of your roll too small (maybe 5 cm or larger in diameter).
The trickiest thing is starting to roll the dry paper when putting it into the developer. Usually you can only insert one end of the paper into the developer and then slowly start rolling it as it gets wet. The wetter it gets the smaller you can make the diameter. I use longer than normal developing times to make sure the paper gets fully developed out all over the print (because one end sees longer development times than the other, since I can't place the complete dry paper into the developer at once).

If the paper size allows print with some extra white border that you will cut away later on. This gives some extra area for handling the paper without damaging the image area.
If space permits roll the paper back and forth without turning the roll (you need to be able to access the tray from the other sider). If you do need to turn the roll (or transfer it to another tray), make it a rather small diameter. This will give a more sturdy roll. If you make it too large (not enough layers of paper on top of each other) it might just sag down under it's own weight damaging / cracking the emulsion. When handling the completeley rolled up paper, stick your fingers into the open ends at both sides to lift it.

I once worked for a photographer who had two roof gutters connected in parallel and with end-caps on as developing 'trays'. So one would roll the paper from one gutter into the other one and then back again.

Olaf
 
bence8810 said:
Yes and that is the problem. There aren't trays of this size.
Therefore I was thinking of using tubes and other methods.

Wonder what others are doing who print big.

Thanks,
Ben
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I printed 20x24 prints a year or two ago, from some 120 negs.

The darkroom I use had enlargers that could do it, but no trays that size. Ordering trays was unwieldy and super expensive, so I looked around and found some shallow storage bins (plastic) from a big box store....taking lids off left me with basically a darkroom developing tray with slightly higher sides (not a detriment) and it worked out well.

I think any print that size is just going to be unwieldy, you have to accept that and find a workflow that gives good results for you.
 
For developing larger stuff at Uni I rolled the paper through a long, maybe foot wide bath. It gets messy but it works. Hold both ends of the print (if its big enough two of you are needed for the job) with the middle dangling into the developer and pull one side up then the other side, making sure the ends get dunked and the 'middle' stay in the dev (long gloves are a must). Make sure you work the paper evenly backwards and forward and just remember that paper is a lot less finikity about its development than film heh.
 
Thanks a lot guys - got great tips and I think i have it all figured out now.
Before I attempt though - I am going to practice more and learn.
Just last night I was printing 5x7's of my son as I am returning home for a visit and want my parents to have some proper prints of their grandchild.

All looked great and then I decided to go 8x10 for two of the shots so I can hang them at home too. Just as I turned on the light once the 8x10 was in the fixer long enough, I spotted lots of dust and dirt on the negative which I didn't see at 5x7 earlier. I guess printing those huge prints, even one dust particle will look so disturbing it'll make me toss the whole print. Lots to learn and practice still - only started printing 3 months ago.

How do you guys clean up the negative / glass etc when going so large?
At 8x10 yesterday I even spotted some newton rings which I didn't think would happen as I have the anti newton glass at the top of my carrier.

Ben
 
I can tell you from experience above 40x50cm prints the problems you get are going into square.
In 40x50cm or 50x60cm (20x24") you can still use simply paper drums. With PE/RC still a piece of cake. In fiber/baryta already a problem because washing these prints can not be done in the paper drum so you need already a big tray or bath. Fiber paper saturated with chemicals is heavy too.

In PE/RC you can go from a roll, normally 1,08m wide and use a sponge. A bit messy but when you have the right simple materials it can be done. The alignment for the enlarger (in projection) can be done these days very simple with a laser pen. The biggest problem is to keep the photo paper flat (pins, magnet) and of course a long exposure time with a minimum of darkroom lights on. Apart from the fact that each dust particle is a problem.

So with minimum requirement of materials not so simple. Anyhow, good luck with your experiment!
 
In one of the James Nightway docco's you see his printer developing large prints by rolling them in a trough like sink. I tried this in long flower pots, it works but being an amateur it was messy and uses heaps of chemicals.

The old style Jobo tubes with the plastic sheet work well up to 50x60cm and a minimum of one shot developer.
 
Hello all,

note: if you follow LFF forum you might have seen this post. I ended up talking to those folks as they handle more large printing than we do small and mid format shooters it seems.

I just realized I forgot to update this thread with what the outcome was and so quickly came back to put a conclusion to this all.

I managed after all a 1 meter by 1 meter final print and I ended up processing it on the floor of our bathroom with sponges and a mere 500ml worth of developer.
Time will tell if the fixing I did was okay, it was also only 500ml but i kept going at it for 10 minutes with the sponges collecting the excess fixer from places and redistributing it to the rest of the print continuously.

I also did a test print a month earlier of my son which had lots of developing errors mainly I think because I used a rubber glove and I had to put my weight on the paper at times and perhaps the rubber left some residue that prevented developing? The print if I look at it closely has marks that could resemble my fist.

Long story short it all worked out great and I ended up spending hours looking at it over the course of two weeks while the print was still with me hanging in my darkroom.

Here are a few pics from the session - hope you enjoy looking at them as much as I enjoyed making them.

It was for a good friend of mine who got married and the photo was exhibited at their wedding party and is going to be framed and displayed in their apartment.

Thanks,
Ben

This is my darkroom set up for the printing. The head is turned and I have some small trays with developer / stop / fixer for the test prints. I did about 10 sheets of 5x7's at various different places of the print as well as a full print of 20x20cm to have a sample to see what tones I need. This sheet of 20x20 was always beside me and as I printed the test strips - I checked if the tones looked the same.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_101.JPG


Then the light goes off.....

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_109.JPG


As I can't process the print in the darkroom I ended up rolling it up after the exposure and putting it into 5 black vinyl 90liter garbage bags. I came up with the number 5 after I started wearing these bags one at a time and looking straight into a bright light to see if anything comes through. After I put the 4th bag over my head I saw absolutely nothing so I added one extra for the sake of being on the safe side and it worked. I transported the image to the bathroom in the bags and moved the developing essentials / safe light etc. Once it was all dark, I removed the bag - just to find I had absolutely no idea what to do with it The little things....
Japanese bathrooms are made of plastic completely so it's perfect for a job like this and they are totally sealed and have a permanent vent taking air out. But its tiny and the paper takes up all the space on the floor so I really had a hard time with those 90liter bags - they ended up going over a rack above the bathtub.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_106.JPG


This is the test print and you see the area I have for this job. The developer / stop / fixer were just poured over the paper and I used the sponges to continuously spreading them. Once done I showered the whole print off and came the next chemical etc until I had it totally fixed.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_107.JPG


Once all done I put the paper on the bathroom's wall and showered it for 10-15 minutes while continuously massaging it with one hand until the stickiness was all gone.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_108.JPG


Then came the actual print a month later. This is the end result with all the test papers placed on top for illustration. Some blend in so much it's hard to spot. I think I had 5 final test strips on their faces / clothes / flower bouquet etc.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_102.JPG


This is the washed and dried print as it was hanging in my darkroom for weeks. You can see the size of it - compare it to the 21inch iMac right below.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_103.JPG


This is again the final print with the rolleiflex I used when taking it and a roll of TMAX.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_104.JPG


And again - just to show the sheer size.

BigPrint_DaiChan_Wedding_105.JPG
 
Ben,

That is mind-boggling amazing! Seriously, what a brilliant piece of lateral thinking and application!

The end result is absolutely superb and I can only imagine that the happy couple were equally staggered and delighted.

Thank you sincerely for this hugely inspirational post.

Cheers.
 
Thanks for the pictures. Actually your solution of a workstation made from wood gave me an idea for my own darkroom.
My solution so far has been not perfect but usable, doing developing on the wall with sponges, straight were it was during exposure. I have a large metal sheet on the wall on which I can hang paper by using magnets. It works, but ain't perfect.
Perhaps I could build a wooden "rim" around my work table and use either plastic or thin metal to make it into a huge tray. That way I could do everything on a table. Then again I would have a issue with cleaning it as there's no drain there.. But perhaps tons of tissue paper would work (drain is not far but I can't get a huge sink into my darkroom).
This would give me a working surface of 2,4m x 1m. It would be plenty for most things I would do at home anyway. Besides even to fill in that size I would have to use 4x5 or 9x12cm negative and have the enlarger all the way on the other side of the room from my working surface / wall. Haven't even thought about that before actually, but now that I've seen you working in that small space and doing 1x1m print, then why not doing much larger when I actually have the space for it :D
 
Santtu, some great ideas there. Rather than use tissue paper to mop up the chemical, couldn't you run a hose to an outlet somewhere?

Also, for large prints it might be worthwhile investing in a Wide Angle enlarging lens. I have a 60mm WA-Componon for 6X6 (there is an 80mm version for 6X9, not sure about large format) that makes a substantial difference in a limited space.
 
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