ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
Many times at RFF we have discussed the photographer's right to photograph in public places.
This is not one of those threads.
If we photograph people how can we ensure to some degree that others do not follow in our footsteps and photograph the same people again without any sympathy and understanding?
I live in a small city; people here at RFF and other places on the internet know where. And I often photograph my friends and neighbors in one or other of the cafe bars in the city center. It's not difficult to find those cafe bars and to recognize the people.
Now twice in a the past month foreign tourists have shown up here with big cameras and bad manners. We usually don't get tourists, but it's not difficult to spot somebody in shorts with lardy white skin and bad muscle tone and cannot speak a single word of Portuguese.
The first one I never saw in person. I just heard about him later. He asked for me by name, and he must have hacked off the cafe owner because he told the guy he'd never heard of me. The people in the cafe related the story to me the following day with glee. They sensed something had not been right, not least his camera 'as big as those ones you see on TV at football matches' they said. Why does he need such a big camera? I told them he sounded like a plonker and they all agreed.
Then a week later I was having a morning coffee, flicking through the newspaper, half watching the TV when another one turned up. Shorts, white skin, no language skills and an enormous Canon SLR with a lens big enough to take on a safari. He too asked after me and where I lived. He was standing right next to me. The cafe owner flicked his eyes very discreetly in my direction asking the question, and I signaled back 'No'.
This time I was able to watch plonker #2 (everybody later agreed it was a different guy) who was scoping out the room like as if he was at the zoo and deciding how to best photograph some interesting animals.
Bad attitude. Everybody decided to put up a newspaper barricade, or turn the other way, or walk to another cafe nearby. There was no way plonker #2 was going to get a photo of any of us.
Of course later we laughed in the way that small town people do when they outwit the out of towners.
But seriously, I know I mention the name of my city, the names of the cafes, the names of the people. But shouldn't they expect some respect, common decency even, and not be treated like exhibits to be snapped with a 500mm lens on a motordrive SLR from five paces?
I could leave out the names in future, or change them, but there are only so many cafes in the city center and many people here are instantly recognizable that they would still be spotted.
If you, like myself, photograph people with dignity and show them respect and take an interest after the 1/60 at f5.6 have you personally ever successfully 'covered your tracks' so that idiots do not follow later and mess up big time? It's a serious question.
This is not one of those threads.
If we photograph people how can we ensure to some degree that others do not follow in our footsteps and photograph the same people again without any sympathy and understanding?
I live in a small city; people here at RFF and other places on the internet know where. And I often photograph my friends and neighbors in one or other of the cafe bars in the city center. It's not difficult to find those cafe bars and to recognize the people.
Now twice in a the past month foreign tourists have shown up here with big cameras and bad manners. We usually don't get tourists, but it's not difficult to spot somebody in shorts with lardy white skin and bad muscle tone and cannot speak a single word of Portuguese.
The first one I never saw in person. I just heard about him later. He asked for me by name, and he must have hacked off the cafe owner because he told the guy he'd never heard of me. The people in the cafe related the story to me the following day with glee. They sensed something had not been right, not least his camera 'as big as those ones you see on TV at football matches' they said. Why does he need such a big camera? I told them he sounded like a plonker and they all agreed.
Then a week later I was having a morning coffee, flicking through the newspaper, half watching the TV when another one turned up. Shorts, white skin, no language skills and an enormous Canon SLR with a lens big enough to take on a safari. He too asked after me and where I lived. He was standing right next to me. The cafe owner flicked his eyes very discreetly in my direction asking the question, and I signaled back 'No'.
This time I was able to watch plonker #2 (everybody later agreed it was a different guy) who was scoping out the room like as if he was at the zoo and deciding how to best photograph some interesting animals.
Bad attitude. Everybody decided to put up a newspaper barricade, or turn the other way, or walk to another cafe nearby. There was no way plonker #2 was going to get a photo of any of us.
Of course later we laughed in the way that small town people do when they outwit the out of towners.
But seriously, I know I mention the name of my city, the names of the cafes, the names of the people. But shouldn't they expect some respect, common decency even, and not be treated like exhibits to be snapped with a 500mm lens on a motordrive SLR from five paces?
I could leave out the names in future, or change them, but there are only so many cafes in the city center and many people here are instantly recognizable that they would still be spotted.
If you, like myself, photograph people with dignity and show them respect and take an interest after the 1/60 at f5.6 have you personally ever successfully 'covered your tracks' so that idiots do not follow later and mess up big time? It's a serious question.
Kevin
Rainbow Bridge
Are you saying that strangers look at your photos online, determine where they were taken and then travel to those places to make similar photos, in the same town where you live and in the same bars/cafes where you frequent??
Sparrow
Veteran
I’ve been agonising over a similar dilemma for a while now without coming to a conclusion, publishing stuff, I’m working on a book-thing at the moment, adds a whole new dimension.
Even though I’ve asked permission and some of the people actually wanted to be made more prominent, to attract customers or through vanity I still have reservations.
Even though I’ve asked permission and some of the people actually wanted to be made more prominent, to attract customers or through vanity I still have reservations.
Chris101
summicronia
Hi Jon,
My skin color resembles that of the underbelly of a dead fish, and I often wear shorts in the summer heat. I don't know Portuguese, only a smattering of Spanglish and Germlish, and I often photograph strangers (although my biggest lens is considerably smaller than 500mm.) I don't know where you live, but if I did and if I were ever to find myself there, I might just ask after you if I were to recognize a place from one of your photos.
I live in a town that is often frequented by tourists, and have been found by RFF members. The description that you give of those people offers them little respect, especially in relationship to the respect that you ask of them. Remember these plonkers are people, people who are bringing their business and ... yes, money to your town. Is it really such a burden to say hello to them, and treat them with respect?
If you did, you might be surprised at the respect that might be returned. If it isn't then your complaints would carry more weight.
My skin color resembles that of the underbelly of a dead fish, and I often wear shorts in the summer heat. I don't know Portuguese, only a smattering of Spanglish and Germlish, and I often photograph strangers (although my biggest lens is considerably smaller than 500mm.) I don't know where you live, but if I did and if I were ever to find myself there, I might just ask after you if I were to recognize a place from one of your photos.
I live in a town that is often frequented by tourists, and have been found by RFF members. The description that you give of those people offers them little respect, especially in relationship to the respect that you ask of them. Remember these plonkers are people, people who are bringing their business and ... yes, money to your town. Is it really such a burden to say hello to them, and treat them with respect?
If you did, you might be surprised at the respect that might be returned. If it isn't then your complaints would carry more weight.
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40oz
...
^ I agree.
dave lackey
Veteran
Hi, Jon...
It kind of reminds me of a photographer's worst nightmare...the papparazzi (spelling?) are after US!!!
I suspect the bad manners is the key problem here, though.
Here in the US, there was a cartoon series from 1948-1975 set in the Okefenokee Swamp in the Southeastern part of the U.S., it was the old "Pogo" cartoon strip. One of the most famous excerpts is:
"We have met the enemy and he is us!"
Just proves that proper manners is appreciated universally and to do otherwise will just make enemies.
Privacy should be respected as well, but a little sugar goes a long way into sweetening a request to meet someone....
It kind of reminds me of a photographer's worst nightmare...the papparazzi (spelling?) are after US!!!
I suspect the bad manners is the key problem here, though.
Here in the US, there was a cartoon series from 1948-1975 set in the Okefenokee Swamp in the Southeastern part of the U.S., it was the old "Pogo" cartoon strip. One of the most famous excerpts is:
"We have met the enemy and he is us!"
Just proves that proper manners is appreciated universally and to do otherwise will just make enemies.
Privacy should be respected as well, but a little sugar goes a long way into sweetening a request to meet someone....
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
Just approach these people and start engaging them in endless gear talk about the camera, lens, strap and case they are using. Pretty soon they'll find another country to photograph. 
Sparrow
Veteran
Chris
I think jon’s circumstance is different, if I understand it these are a small bars it a provincial town, not some place dependant on attracting tourist dollars, some place in Porto waiting for a cruise ship to rip off. In Europe the two feel very different.
I think jon’s circumstance is different, if I understand it these are a small bars it a provincial town, not some place dependant on attracting tourist dollars, some place in Porto waiting for a cruise ship to rip off. In Europe the two feel very different.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I'm not sure you can be a photographer and resent the actions of other photographers. Having said that, I really don't think bars and cafes are an appropriate place for cameras, for the same reason that I resent people who use their cell phones in the same locations. Sometimes you just want to be left alone.
acheyj
Well-known
Jon
It gets down to good manners doesnt it ?. Increasingly in this sad world becomming very rare.
kevin, my word you have a lot of cameras !
ron
It gets down to good manners doesnt it ?. Increasingly in this sad world becomming very rare.
kevin, my word you have a lot of cameras !
ron
back alley
IMAGES
jon, wasn't it you that completely disregarded the objections of a local bar owner and continued to secretly photograph in his establishment.
and yes, isn't it easy to be disrespectful of others and mock after the fact instead of honestly engaging them to their face.
joe
and yes, isn't it easy to be disrespectful of others and mock after the fact instead of honestly engaging them to their face.
joe
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Hi Joe,
I just sent you a PM about this.
Philipp
I just sent you a PM about this.
Philipp
capitalK
Warrior Poet :P
I probably would not have said a thing to the tourist at the time to let him know it was unacceptable or to show him another way. Instead I would have waited until later and posted about it on the internet.
:bang:
:bang:
Roger Hicks
Veteran
There's a major difference of perception here, which is possibly cultural. In most of Europe, bars and cafés are convivial places; if you want to be left alone, stay home.
I've taken pics in bars and cafés and pubs on three continents, and never had any grief. But then, I go in, buy a drink, talk as best I can, and so forth, before I take any pictures. It doesn't take long to be accepted. There was a bar in Jaca in northern Spain I visited three times (I was only in the town for three days). By the third day the landlord was greeting me with a smile and asking if I wanted my usual drink. My Spanish is all but non-existent, and what there is of it is Californian/Mexican, not Castilian.
Sure, go on like it's a zoo, and you're inviting flak. Go in as if you're someone who wants a drink, and there is rarely any problem.
Cheers,
R.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
Wow....
I hear Elvis had the same sorts of problems.
I hear Elvis had the same sorts of problems.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
All the newspaper photographers here in Miami are now using huge DSLR's with big white zoom lenses ~ no way to be unnoticed! But it's also a place where I'll often find myself in situations where nobody really speaks English. A dozen dialects of Spanish and Haitian Kreyole are what you hear in some neighborhoods. Still, you can act friendly, order a cup of coffee, find a person or two with enough English for basic communication. I usually come back a day or two later and give them a bunch of small prints.
jbf
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You, of all people, have no business talking like this. You are a moderator. Leave the snide messages at the door please. You are here to represent rangefinderforum.com and be--at least to some degree--impartial and fair.
back alley
IMAGES
i have edited my comments.
and i do believe that i have the same right to be wrong as jon does.
and i do believe that i have the same right to be wrong as jon does.
Spider67
Well-known
That was a stalemate for me: Taking pictures of intimate moments, asking very often, but also shooting away as the moment would be lost.
I consider myself a hunter in situations like that: Basically doing the same thing like the guys in shorts but with an attitude I developed over the years. So I was just in the same mindset as the guys with the antitank lenses. Seeing the intimate photos made by Brassai did not exactly teach me to abstain from shooting in Cafés and Bars. Luckily I mimicked photogs like HCB as I got the books from Time Life. With a bit more money and a bit less reading I would have shot away with a premium, motored SLR and a stuffy zoom.
It took years to understand that sometimes there a situations where you can take photos only if you become a part of the whole thing. I think Claremont did that in this Portuguese town.
It would have been possible to talk at least to the first one who asked for him by name. Claremont decided not to do which is his good right. Those people payed a lot for their cameras and for their ticket because they saw the promise somewhere that those two elements make great photos. They want to get their moneys worth out of it and are outside their normal environment where they could even be well mannered. Am I better than them? A bit more knowledgeable a bit more experienced.
Claremonts post gives us something to think about: How we behave ourselves and how we could react to people who behave that way. What lesson did those two guys learn?
Sometimes I snipe people without them knowing it and then I am just like
Mr. Antiaircraft lens the only difference being a pang of a bad conscience.
PS: The easiest way to camouflage yourself as a native person in the Mediterranean region: wear long trousers.....a stubby chin would also help
(Also consider the meaning of hunter in most parts of Europe where hunter are also something like forest rangers, often going on a hunt to preserve the forest. Boar hunting in Germany)
I consider myself a hunter in situations like that: Basically doing the same thing like the guys in shorts but with an attitude I developed over the years. So I was just in the same mindset as the guys with the antitank lenses. Seeing the intimate photos made by Brassai did not exactly teach me to abstain from shooting in Cafés and Bars. Luckily I mimicked photogs like HCB as I got the books from Time Life. With a bit more money and a bit less reading I would have shot away with a premium, motored SLR and a stuffy zoom.
It took years to understand that sometimes there a situations where you can take photos only if you become a part of the whole thing. I think Claremont did that in this Portuguese town.
It would have been possible to talk at least to the first one who asked for him by name. Claremont decided not to do which is his good right. Those people payed a lot for their cameras and for their ticket because they saw the promise somewhere that those two elements make great photos. They want to get their moneys worth out of it and are outside their normal environment where they could even be well mannered. Am I better than them? A bit more knowledgeable a bit more experienced.
Claremonts post gives us something to think about: How we behave ourselves and how we could react to people who behave that way. What lesson did those two guys learn?
Sometimes I snipe people without them knowing it and then I am just like
Mr. Antiaircraft lens the only difference being a pang of a bad conscience.
PS: The easiest way to camouflage yourself as a native person in the Mediterranean region: wear long trousers.....a stubby chin would also help
(Also consider the meaning of hunter in most parts of Europe where hunter are also something like forest rangers, often going on a hunt to preserve the forest. Boar hunting in Germany)
jbf
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you do have the same right to be wrong, but not the right to name calling. in your 'street clothes', yes. but not in 'uniform'.
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