Proud to be an American

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FrankS said:
Given the discussion it has provoked, I'd say this is a very successful image, Chris!
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Quite. "Patriotism" is a very interesting (and ultimately flawed) concept: patriotic Serbs fought patriotic Croats; many patriotic Germans fought under the Nazi banner, for Germany not Nazism; patriotic Yankees fought patriotic Confederates, and so forth. The flaw lies in the fact that there can be two different kinds of 'patriots' in the same nation and that often, each group defines itself as the 'only true patriots', with an option on hating the other kind of 'patriot'. Anyone remember the Life of Brian and the Judaean Liberation Front versus the Liberation Front of Judaea?

Incidentally, I assumed that everyone had seen the sign in the window and read Chris's title and caption. I see no evidence in any letter that this was not so.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Quite. "Patriotism" is a very interesting (and ultimately flawed) concept: patriotic Serbs fought patriotic Croats; many patriotic Germans fought under the Nazi banner, for Germany not Nazism; patriotic Yankees fought patriotic Confederates, and so forth. The flaw lies in the fact that there can be two different kinds of 'patriots' in the same nation and that often, each group defines itself as the 'only true patriots', with an option on hating the other kind of 'patriot'. Anyone remember the Life of Brian and the Judaean Liberation Front versus the Liberation Front of Judaea?

Incidentally, I assumed that everyone had seen the sign in the window and read Chris's title and caption. I see no evidence in any letter that this was not so.

Cheers,

R.
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... we've solved that problem hereabouts; yesterday I saw a chap wearing a tee-shirt on which was a large white rose and the slogan "If it's not from Yorkshire it's ****e"
 
boils right down to the 'Derby and Proud' T shirts I see at the local football matches. The hatred between Derby and Nottingham fans - cities a few miles apart - is difficult to rival. Unless you live in Glasgow, Belfast, Derry....
 
print44 said:
boils right down to the 'Derby and Proud' T shirts I see at the local football matches. The hatred between Derby and Nottingham fans - cities a few miles apart - is difficult to rival. Unless you live in Glasgow, Belfast, Derry....
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For sure. In the village where I was born, Nanpean people (from the next village over) are a by-word for laziness. "Lazy? They'll lie in bed till they sh*t theirselves." And where we live now, Frances is regarded with some suspicion for having friends in Martaizé, four miles away.

Anything that is based on "Us aganst Them" can quickly turn dangerous, which is why I am, in general, against patriotism. Like Marty, I want the world to be a better place, especially where I live. I'd like the whole world to look at other parts of the world and see how pointless some of their laws and prejudices are.

To take a couple of trivial examples, parking motorcycles on the pavement (sidewalk) is legal in France but not in the UK (because blind people might walk into them), and nowhere I've been except the USA is it compulsory to stop when school buses stop to unload kids. That you do not see heaps of blind people in front of motorcycles in France, lying on their backs and feebly waving their legs, nor yet drifts of dead schoolchildren next to school bus stops anywhere, may be taken as evidence that these laws are over-cautious.

But then, to quote Flanders and Swann on the subject on non-English, "It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad/It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad."

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
To take a couple of trivial examples, parking motorcycles on the pavement (sidewalk) is legal in France but not in the UK (because blind people might walk into them), and nowhere I've been except the USA is it compulsory to stop when school buses stop to unload kids. That you do not see heaps of blind people in front of motorcycles in France, lying on their backs and feebly waving their legs, nor yet drifts of dead schoolchildren next to school bus stops anywhere, may be taken as evidence that these laws are over-cautious.
Cheers,

R.
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Trivial? Why should motorcyclists, who demand the same rights as car drivers, not follow the same rules as everyone else? I have lived in and around San Francisco for about 15 years and I can see many good reasons to keep them off the sidewalk. First of all, it's a sideWALK, it's for walking out of traffic, not dodging motorcycles. Why shouldn't they have to pay the meters like I do? Why should they be allowed to let their bikes leak oil all over the sidewalk?
As for the school bus statement, that's just silly. Tell me one reason why you shouldn't stop. There are kids getting off the bus who may not be aware of the danger involved in stepping two feet into traffic without looking yet. Is it really worth your perceived right to speed past the bus to splatter someone else's kid all over the front of your car?

my .02

bob
 
Many people who live in America did not come here by accident (born here), and they would say that they are proud to be an American.
 
Less and less all the time. The corrupt politicians are ruining the country and piling up debt like the is no tomorrow.

A large part of the people have a functional equivalent of 6 grade education and they continue to vote the same politicians in. There are no qualifications to vote except be a citizen. We came close to destroying the world economy with our recent mortgage crisis which is not over ..

The Chinese communists are lecturing us on how to run an economy and they are right. How is that for bad news.

I am proud to be an American, not proud of the tactics the politicians use to remain in office and how easily they are able to fool a large part of the sheeple, a new term I just learned.

I am proud of the things we have done to make a better world. I am not proud how the government elects to leave the work half done after the sacrifice of blood and treasure, Korea, Viet Nam, now Afganistan, because of political pressure.

I am proud of the people who volunteer to serve on these missions. Real proud. They are the best.
 
I've been mulling this all afternoon and evening and my thoughts seem to be coagulating in two directions:
The kind of 'pride' that's being railed against here is a kind of dehumanising tendency towards mass prejudice of one kind or another. But countering this there's the 'sense' of pride one might feel when doing a job well or trying hard to overcome whatever obstacle lies ahead and succeeding. This kind of pride can be a very strong positive force and lies at the heart of our ability to create everything from good pictures to attractive homes. Is that the source of the need to protect it here on these pages? Maybe this sense of pride spills erroneously into the wider arenas whether they be football teams or nation states while still retaining its essential feeling of being well grounded and positive?
Maybe the problem here (in these responses to the picture) lies in the word 'pride' and its multiple meanings and connotations?
And thats the second tangent my brain's been running over. Take away the sign and the irony it evokes (in my reading of the photograph) albeit a tragic irony, and what do you, the onlooker, gain from looking at it? Is it actually the words within the frame as well as the accompanying text which really triggers this diverse response to the image?
 
Here in the U.S we certainly see many more flags and other symbols of nationalism than I've seen in other countries. I've spent serious time in several countries. Flags, etc., only came out on very special occasions, unlike here in the U.S. But, to say those people were any less committed to their nation than most Americans would be false.

The promise of America -- the ability to remake and redefine yourself -- however real or however mythical, means, I think, we see a lot of flags and a lot of resort to cheap manipulative patriotism in poorer areas. American patriotism may not be the last resort of scoundrels (it is often the first) but it often is for Americans in hard times. It is deeply connected with our frontier mythology. I.e., our great-great grandparents moved across the mountains, or moved up north, to find a better life. So can we, at least metaphorically.
 
bob338 said:
Trivial? Why should motorcyclists, who demand the same rights as car drivers, not follow the same rules as everyone else? I have lived in and around San Francisco for about 15 years and I can see many good reasons to keep them off the sidewalk. First of all, it's a sideWALK, it's for walking out of traffic, not dodging motorcycles. Why shouldn't they have to pay the meters like I do? Why should they be allowed to let their bikes leak oil all over the sidewalk?
As for the school bus statement, that's just silly. Tell me one reason why you shouldn't stop. There are kids getting off the bus who may not be aware of the danger involved in stepping two feet into traffic without looking yet. Is it really worth your perceived right to speed past the bus to splatter someone else's kid all over the front of your car?

my .02

bob
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Absolutely agree here !

Chris, it's really a great photo (stuff like that is why I visit RFF) !

Cheers
Steven
 
I look at the photo and see another potentially beautiful house falling into disrepair and perhaps ruin. We are a wasteful species, especially the members of the species here in the USA.

We talk about being frugal with money, but want to spend energy and resources as if P&M just let us loose on college with the family credit card.

And Roger, the Judean Peoples Front is alright except that they're SPLITTERS.
 
I get the impression that no matter their rung on the ladder of society - they're still proud to be an American. Perhaps on a continent that's been home to two World Wars, being proud of who you are sounds a little war-mongering. But hey - someone starts another one over there, and we'll be there with sleeves rolled up to help bail you out yet again.

Who else turned England in to the largest aircraft carrier in the world, rolled their sleeves up, and stepped across the line on the beach along side allies to rid the world of a menace. Of course a nod to the RAF - wouldn't have happened without their "Finest Hour!" Who else dared to shake hands with the otherside after it was all over, pour money into both our enemies, and build them back up to be successful once again. No one else shakes the other's hand after it's all over with and asks "friends?" We been shaking hands with our enemies after the fight since the very beginning.

Yep - we got our problems, greed, all the rest of the vices, and everything else. Heck we're no different from any folk on the planet. But one thing we ain't -that's being afraid to say who we are and that we're proud of it.

Nice picture by the way - pride and belief in a greater good - no matter your fate in society.
 
Constant overt displays of national pride scare the eell out of me. All you have to do is look at film clips and stills of prewar Nazi Germany to constantly see flags everywhere and see what that kind of pride has a potential to lead to. I prefer a less relentless more subdued kind of national pride. Anyway, the photo shows pure irony to me.

Bob
 
A lot of great replies. I'm with bob338 on the bike thing. I used to ride and I'm looking for another bike. Bikes are for streets, and sidewalks are for feets.

I'm not a proud American, because I was lucky enough to be born here. But like Ken said, I'm proud of what we have done. I also appreciate all the good that people around the world do, and I'm proud of anybody that makes a better world. This goes for nations down to your next door neighbor.
 
Not to be critical but Americans are a flag waving nation and they attach a lot of importance to 'old glory' and rightly so because they fought hard for the right to wave it!

Lately on Australia day I see a lot of vehicles being driven around with the Australian flag fluttering on them and it makes me cringe ... because that's not us IMO.

Great image Chris and the title is perfect. :)
 
Always entertaining watching people over-generalize in RFF threads. Us versus them must make them feel better about themselves. Sweet.

Chris, yours reminded me of this photo:
4623664702_bb192d8a2e_z.jpg
 
Ken Smith said:
I get the impression that no matter their rung on the ladder of society - they're still proud to be an American. Perhaps on a continent that's been home to two World Wars, being proud of who you are sounds a little war-mongering. But hey - someone starts another one over there, and we'll be there with sleeves rolled up to help bail you out yet again.

Who else turned England in to the largest aircraft carrier in the world, rolled their sleeves up, and stepped across the line on the beach along side allies to rid the world of a menace. Of course a nod to the RAF - wouldn't have happened without their "Finest Hour!" Who else dared to shake hands with the otherside after it was all over, pour money into both our enemies, and build them back up to be successful once again. No one else shakes the other's hand after it's all over with and asks "friends?" We been shaking hands with our enemies after the fight since the very beginning.

Yep - we got our problems, greed, all the rest of the vices, and everything else. Heck we're no different from any folk on the planet. But one thing we ain't -that's being afraid to say who we are and that we're proud of it.

Nice picture by the way - pride and belief in a greater good - no matter your fate in society.
Click to expand...

You mention great things done by previous generations of Americans the world will always be grateful for. But since Vietnam, Central America, Middle East, Afghanistan, you know what I mean,............
 
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