Push Velvia 50

[marameo]

Hi,

I was wondering if it made any sense exposing Velvia 50 at 100 and have the lab overdevelop it by 1 stop. Velvia 50 has this saturated color palette...will I get a more saturated and contrasty look?

Thanks

 

[tsiklonaut]

ASA 100 is a bit too much for V50. On paper it goes to ASA80 max, but I guess it depends on the scene, it may come out allright.

More contrasty (with washed out highlights) probably yes. More saturated probably no, probably less saturated since "luminosity" layer (developed with first developer [FD] in E6 process) is "lighter" when overpushed from nominal ASA50 to ASA100. For color layer the CD (Color Developer) applyes the same on all exposures - hence depending how luminous (transparent) the FD part is that decides the saturation/detail ratios - many slide shooters use this exposure and FD time variation finding their sweet spot with particuar E6 film.

Hence,

For colors some shoot V50 @ ASA32
For detail some shoot V50 @ ASA64

And develop accordingly.

 

[marameo]

Ok, so the lab will push the First developer bath and not the Color developer bath.

The First developer bath controls contrast.

When you say less saturated, do you mean more of a pastel look?

Thanks

 

[marameo]

Also, what about flash or pre-exposing color slide film?

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

What are you trying to do? Unless you are shooting purely for projection, if you want to expose a current reversal film at 100, you are probably going to be better off using some Velvia 100 or Provia 100F and adjusting your scanned images to give you the saturation and contrast that you would like.

 

[marameo]

What are you trying to do? Unless you are shooting purely for projection, if you want to expose a current reversal film at 100, you are probably going to be better off using some Velvia 100 or Provia 100F and adjusting your scanned images to give you the saturation and contrast that you would like.

I am searching for a look like this: http://www.redbubble.com/people/reflexio/journal/4076268-pushing-a-fuji-velvia-100

 

[HHPhoto]

Also, what about flash or pre-exposing color slide film?

Both work excellent with slide film.
Highly recommended.

1. Pre-exposing:
Works excellent in combination with Push 1 (and Push 2). Or without push to lower the contrast getting more shadow detail.
By pre-exposing (pre-flashing) you get better shadow detail and a better (not so steep) characteristic curve.
So your results with pre-exposing and Push 1 are almost identical to standard exposure and standard development.

2. Fill-in flash:
With fill-in flash (especially with modern cameras and flashes; e.g. Nikon F6 with SB-800) you can master even the highest contrast scenes.
Metering and exposure is for the highlights.
And with the fill-in flash you just get the needed light for the shadows to get the shadow detail you want.
Works absolutely perfect!
Especially if you make a power compensation of -1 to - 2 stops at the flash.

I am using fill-in flash very often in scenes with high contrast.
The results I get are looking absolutely natural and perfect. You mostly even cannot see that fill-in flash was used, so natural the scenes are looking. They are looking like the picture I have seen with my eyes (because of the much higher DR of the eyes; with fill-in flash you are copying the DR capabilities of the eye).

Cheers, Jan

P.S.
As for the look of the pictures in your link:
Just try Velvia 50 and Velvia 100 with push 1 and 2 and look whether you like it.
Tastes differ. Only you can decide whether the look is what you want.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

I am searching for a look like this: http://www.redbubble.com/people/reflexio/journal/4076268-pushing-a-fuji-velvia-100

Well, it's a small world. I know John, gave him some advice on medium format a few years ago when he was looking into it (he went with a 3.5 Rolleiflex in the end). And I'm having breakfast with the guy who probably developed the films tomorrow...

 

[marameo]

By pre-exposing (pre-flashing) you get better shadow detail and a better (not so steep) characteristic curve.

How do you go about pre-flashing? Do you expose a grey card at -2 or -3?

I am using fill-in flash very often in scenes with high contrast.

Ok, so the goal is to narrow the contrast of the scene down in order to fit the low latitude of slide films. Does a power compensation of -2 mean that the highlight-to-shadow range will be 2 stops at the most?

Thanks

 

[HHPhoto]

How do you go about pre-flashing? Do you expose a grey card at -2 or -3?

You have two possibilities:
1. Pre-flashing the whole film (e.g. in the darkroom)
2. Pre-flashing each or just the picture you want by exposing a grey card and using the multi-exposure function.
How much is best you have to test for your work.
Start your test with - 3,5 ; - 3,75 and - 4 stop pre-exposing.

Ok, so the goal is to narrow the contrast of the scene down in order to fit the low latitude of slide films.

Slide films have much more latitude than people think.
Especially films like Provia 100F, Provia 400X, AgfaPhoto CT Precisa, Rollei CR 200.
Up to 8 stops are possible.
Velvia is about 7 stops.

Does a power compensation of -2 mean that the highlight-to-shadow range will be 2 stops at the most?

Thanks

No.
The highlight to shadow range is dependant on the contrast of the original scene and the power of your flash.
When using fill-in flash the original metering is more based on the highlights in the way that you get highlight detail.
With the fill-in flash you get the needed shadow detail.
The flash does not influence the midtones and the highlights!!
Therfore this technique is working so excellent.

A simple example how that works in principle:
You make a picture. Your Zone I is getting 1 unit of light.
Then your Zone IX is getting 256 units of light.

Now you use fill-in flash in that scene, you want more shaodow detail:
You give the shadow 1 unit additional light:
Yore Zone I has now 1 +1 = 2 units of light.
Your Zone II has 2 + 1 = 3 units of light (instead of 2 without flash)
Zone III has 4 + 1 = 5 units of light (instead of 4 without flash).

Zone V has 16 + 1 = 17 units of light.

But your Zone XIII (highlights) has 128 +1 = 129 units of light (instead of 128; this extremely tiny difference of less than 1% is absolutely not visible in the picture).
And Zone IX has 256 + 1 = 257 units of light.

Therefore the highlights and midtones are not affected by fill-in flash, only the shadows.
Just exactly like we want it.

Fill-in flash is one of the most powerful techiques in photography.

Cheers, Jan

 

[noisycheese]

ASA 100 is a bit too much for V50. On paper it goes to ASA80 max, but I guess it depends on the scene, it may come out allright.

More contrasty (with washed out highlights) probably yes. More saturated probably no, probably less saturated since "luminosity" layer (developed with first developer [FD] in E6 process) is "lighter" when overpushed from nominal ASA50 to ASA100. For color layer the CD (Color Developer) applyes the same on all exposures - hence depending how luminous (transparent) the FD part is that decides the saturation/detail ratios - many slide shooters use this exposure and FD time variation finding their sweet spot with particuar E6 film.

Hence,

For colors some shoot V50 @ ASA32
For detail some shoot V50 @ ASA64

And develop accordingly.

Given the above comments, this may be hard for some to believe - it was hard for me to believe, and I saw it firsthand - but I once shot a roll of Velvia 50 at ISO 400 by accident in one of my Nikon FM2n cameras. When
I sent it to the lab, I labeled it as "ISO 400 push" and let the lab know what happened and to be on the lookout for this roll.

I was expecting horrid results, but when this batch of chromes came back, I laid them out on my light box and could not tell which was the roll shot at ISO 400. I still can't figure this out, except to say that it must have been the result of superior lab practices by my E-6 lab ( http://www.agximaging.com/ ).

If you want to try Velvia 50 at ISO 100, you might get away with a +1EV push in low to medium contrast lighting, but using Velvia 100 would be more advisable for once in a lifetime shooting. In my experience, Velvia 50 has a much nicer rendering of subtle colors like the hues of a sunset/sunrise or wildflowers; I stick to Velvia 50 for those subjects and use Velvia 100 for low light shooting.

Hope this helps...

 

[marameo]

You have two possibilities:
A simple example how that works in principle:
You make a picture. Your Zone I is getting 1 unit of light.
Then your Zone IX is getting 256 units of light.

I'd love to translate this to f-stop terms.
I make a picture in a room with good ambient light. The reading near the window is f/11 and at the corner across the room is f/2.8

I want to expose for the highlight. Yet, with fill-in flash I'd like to get the needed shadow detail. Do I have to fire the flash at f/2.8?

If so, I should get 2.8 + 2.8 in the shadow and 11 + 2.8 in the highlight. Is this correct?

Thanks

 

[marameo]

I once shot a roll of Velvia 50 at ISO 400 by accident in one of my Nikon FM2n cameras. When
I sent it to the lab, I labeled it as "ISO 400 push" and let the lab know what happened and to be on the lookout for this roll.

Now, what if I overexpose Velvia 100 to 50 and develop for ISO 200?

Thanks

 

[marameo]

If so, I should get 2.8 + 2.8 in the shadow and 11 + 2.8 in the highlight.

Actually, I have to re think this. If I want to narrow down the range I will fill flash at f/4 in the shadow. Because of the additive nature of light I will get f/2.8 + f/4 = f/4.5 in the shadow area.

I understand I have to use pre flash when the flash has not enough power to fill in. So, if the highlight is metering at f/11 I might want pre-flash by exposing a grey card at f/4 (-3 stops)

 

[HHPhoto]

I'd love to translate this to f-stop terms.

Well, the Zone system I've referred to is in f-stop terms:
Zone 0: no light, deep dark black without detail.
Zone I: +1 stop (=double amount of light)
Zone II: +2 stops (= 4x amount of light)
Zone III: +3 stops (= 8x)
Zone IV: +4 stops (= 16x)
Zone V: +5 stops (= 32x)
Zone VI: + 6 stops (= 64x)
Zone VII: +7 stops (=128x)
Zone VIII: +8 stops (=256x)
Zone IX: +9 stops (= 512x)
Zone X: +10 stops, bright pure white without detail (= 1024x amount of light).

Zone V is normal grey, the standard midtone.
All exposure meters are calibrated to this Zone.

I make a picture in a room with good ambient light. The reading near the window is f/11 and at the corner across the room is f/2.8

That is only a contrast range of 5 stops. No problem for any film.
No fill-in flash needed.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Actually, I have to re think this. If I want to narrow down the range I will fill flash at f/4 in the shadow. Because of the additive nature of light I will get f/2.8 + f/4 = f/4.5 in the shadow area.

I understand I have to use pre flash when the flash has not enough power to fill in. So, if the highlight is metering at f/11 I might want pre-flash by exposing a grey card at f/4 (-3 stops)

Well, for the beginning just make your life as easy as possible:

1. Just use one of the modern cameras with excellent TTL flash systems.
For example Nikon F6, F5, F100, F90X, F80.
Or
Canon EOS 1V, EOS 3, EOS 30 / 33V.
Or
Minolta Dynax 9, Dynax 7, Dynax 800si.

With the exception of the Nikon F6 all these excellent cameras can currently be bought on the used market for ridiculous low prices. It is a no brainer to buy one of them.

Second step: Adding one of the modern flashes to it.
For Nikon for exapmle that would be the SB-28, SB-80, SB-800, SB-600.
Also extremely cheap on the used market.

Just set the flashes (and cameras) on the TTL fill-in flash function.
In combination with the Matrix metering the results will be automatically already very good.
And you will get excellent results by just reducing the power of the flashes in that fill-in flash mode manually by -1 to -2 stops.
Whether the reduction is less (-1) or more (up to -2) depends on
- the scene
- your taste: how much shadow detail do you want?

Using fill in flash with the modern cameras and flashes is
- extremely easy (because the automatic metering already does an excellent job)
- extremely cheap.

Just try it. You will be very satiesfied. And when you have used it for a certain time, you will be confident for manuel metering as well.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Skiff]

Using fill in flash with the modern cameras and flashes is
- extremely easy (because the automatic metering already does an excellent job)
- extremely cheap.

Just try it. You will be very satiesfied.
Cheers, Jan

+1.
I am using fill-in flash very often and get outstanding results.
The scene you want to shoot has a very high contrast?
No problem at all with fill-in flash!
You easily get nice detail both in the highlights, and also in the shadows by using fill-in flash.
And the results are looking absolutely natural. When I show these pictures to others, they don't realise that a little additional light was used. And they are amazed by the outstanding tonality and the richness in shadow and highlight detail, as well as the brillant colors.
Using transparancy film and modern fill-in flash technology is a combination made in heaven.